Technical Mums 2005 Fiat Ducato ECU Failure Once Again

[natsul73]

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone can help? We're very desperate now :-(

My mum was widowed in 2019 and had always gone away caravanning with dad for most of their 40 years married life together. In 2020 she decided to purchase a 2005 Fiat Ducato Autotrail from Maquis, as she missed those days and felt ready to give it a go on her own. They didn't have anything in her budget range, except for this one, which was shipped in from elsewhere (god knows where??) She fell in love with it instantly and bought it there on the spot!

Ever since she's had nothing but (severe) trouble with it. The immobiliser light would come on whilst driving and simply turn the whole thing off - engine - everything! Very scary indeed.

The first time it happened in 2021, after much investigation to the fuel side of things (the engine would turn over sporadically, but no fuel would get to the engine) it was eventually pinned down to the ECU failing after 2 months sat in Fiat and going back and forth with Cartech towards the end in Cornwall. They sent back 2 x refurbished Bosch ECU's (ECU 1 + 2 they called them) plus the original. But, Fiat totally ignored their instructions (they said to try the cloned EC1 first and then ECU2 if that didn't work) but ended up putting the original back in too and said that it was working again. Fiat totally ignored their instructions and just put the original back in as they had got fed up of the job and wanted to send it back home to us! ECU 2 had to be sent back to Cartech as it wasn't paid for and was a favour from them, and we ended up with ECU1 as a spare.

Anyway, after 6 months use, it happened again in 2022! This time it went to another garage for a further 2 months. Exact same issues. Exact same outcome. They tried the cloned ECU 1 as well as tinkering with the original and only the original seemed to work eventually again (again, after a lot of work being done on the fuel pump, injectors etc etc).

She managed to get 1000 miles out of it this past year and ONCE AGAIN - it failed to start again on site on her first trip out in May this year! Immobiliser light back on, no start. The original ECU has been checked by a different company and they said it's dud - only works sporadically, especially when it gets warm/hot. ECU1 clone was also sent to this company, they de-immobilised it last week and nothing. No fault codes, no immobiliser light, nothing. It's just dead and fails to communicate.

When the garage manages to get the original to work temporarily again, it talks to everything ok, but it's not creating enough pressure before the injectors fire. They said they've also replaced the DRV valve? Ad when it's disconnected from the regulator, there's too much rail pressure! (I have no idea what any of this means, so I'm hoping I'm explaining it correctly?)

We're feeling like that's it. There's nothing that can be done with it. It has to be scrapped, as no one can help :-( But the van is lovely, immaculate and has very low milage and worth over £20k - it seems crazy to have to do that??! But we really don't know where to turn with it next.

It seems the Bosch ECU is very hard to find and when I looked up the part number, all the issues we're experiencing are listed as known faults on their site, they're exactly the same!

Has anyone else experienced this same issue at all? And if so, did you manage to find a solution??

To date, we've used Cartech in Cornwall, Pelican Diagnostics and AC Tronics now for the ECU work and all say the original has full comms, but only works sporadically and is affected by heat. ECU 1 reports are very sketchy and dont correspond with each other at all (AC Tronics said there was no data on it, yet Cartech said they cloned it over perfectly. Pelican said last week that he had full comms with it and was working fine. Arrrggghhh!)

I really hope someone can shed some light on this and can help my poor mum in some way. It's making her very ill (she shouldn't have to be dealing with ongoing stress this at the age of 74!)

Thank you in advance, her daughter, Natalie

 

[bugsymike]

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone can help? We're very desperate now :-(

My mum was widowed in 2019 and had always gone away caravanning with dad for most of their 40 years married life together. In 2020 she decided to purchase a 2005 Fiat Ducato Autotrail from Maquis, as she missed those days and felt ready to give it a go on her own. They didn't have anything in her budget range, except for this one, which was shipped in from elsewhere (god knows where??) She fell in love with it instantly and bought it there on the spot!

Ever since she's had nothing but (severe) trouble with it. The immobiliser light would come on whilst driving and simply turn the whole thing off - engine - everything! Very scary indeed.

The first time it happened in 2021, after much investigation to the fuel side of things (the engine would turn over sporadically, but no fuel would get to the engine) it was eventually pinned down to the ECU failing after 2 months sat in Fiat and going back and forth with Cartech towards the end in Cornwall. They sent back 2 x refurbished Bosch ECU's (ECU 1 + 2 they called them) plus the original. But, Fiat totally ignored their instructions (they said to try the cloned EC1 first and then ECU2 if that didn't work) but ended up putting the original back in too and said that it was working again. Fiat totally ignored their instructions and just put the original back in as they had got fed up of the job and wanted to send it back home to us! ECU 2 had to be sent back to Cartech as it wasn't paid for and was a favour from them, and we ended up with ECU1 as a spare.

Anyway, after 6 months use, it happened again in 2022! This time it went to another garage for a further 2 months. Exact same issues. Exact same outcome. They tried the cloned ECU 1 as well as tinkering with the original and only the original seemed to work eventually again (again, after a lot of work being done on the fuel pump, injectors etc etc).

She managed to get 1000 miles out of it this past year and ONCE AGAIN - it failed to start again on site on her first trip out in May this year! Immobiliser light back on, no start. The original ECU has been checked by a different company and they said it's dud - only works sporadically, especially when it gets warm/hot. ECU1 clone was also sent to this company, they de-immobilised it last week and nothing. No fault codes, no immobiliser light, nothing. It's just dead and fails to communicate.

When the garage manages to get the original to work temporarily again, it talks to everything ok, but it's not creating enough pressure before the injectors fire. They said they've also replaced the DRV valve? Ad when it's disconnected from the regulator, there's too much rail pressure! (I have no idea what any of this means, so I'm hoping I'm explaining it correctly?)

We're feeling like that's it. There's nothing that can be done with it. It has to be scrapped, as no one can help :-( But the van is lovely, immaculate and has very low milage and worth over £20k - it seems crazy to have to do that??! But we really don't know where to turn with it next.

It seems the Bosch ECU is very hard to find and when I looked up the part number, all the issues we're experiencing are listed as known faults on their site, they're exactly the same!

Has anyone else experienced this same issue at all? And if so, did you manage to find a solution??

To date, we've used Cartech in Cornwall, Pelican Diagnostics and AC Tronics now for the ECU work and all say the original has full comms, but only works sporadically and is affected by heat. ECU 1 reports are very sketchy and dont correspond with each other at all (AC Tronics said there was no data on it, yet Cartech said they cloned it over perfectly. Pelican said last week that he had full comms with it and was working fine. Arrrggghhh!)

I really hope someone can shed some light on this and can help my poor mum in some way. It's making her very ill (she shouldn't have to be dealing with ongoing stress this at the age of 74!)

Thank you in advance, her daughter, Natalie

It does seem like more than one fault, maybe from all the tinkering around with the ECU , unless there are other electrical faults.
Many years ago I had an Iveco Daily 2.8 (similar engine to one used in some Ducatos of that era) with the Bosch MS 6.3 ECU I think it was, the ignition chip for the key was lost (long story) Dealers wanted £1000 if I delivered vehicle to them 30 + miles away.
In the end I sent the ECU to a company who removed the immobiliser side, but said before fitting to the vehicle I must unplug the aerial ring around the ignition switch and also the immobiliser ECU that it talks to.
I followed their instructions exactly and had no problems at all, total cost £137 including postage, sadly they are no longer there.
However my thought was if the dealer didn't follow that sort of instructions from the electronics company it may have undone any good work done as ECU immobiliser may have tried to communicate with the original chipped key if any instructions to remove the chip from any key subsequently used were not followed.
The problem with this sort of job is so many people have tinkered with it, more faults may have been introduced.
Before retiring the thing hated most by mechanics was putting right someone elses **** up. As it always took much longer trying to find what they had interfered with.
If you can find a good old school mechanic and he can locate the ECU and all related parts from a running but scrapped Ducato same model, maybe a basic van though etc.to swap the parts over.
I am only guessing as it really depends what other faults are there.
Unless water got into the electrics somewhere or flood damaged, generally ECUs themselves are fairly reliable, it always seems to me some garages blame the ECU when they cannot solve a electrical problem as an easy answer, which of course it isn't!
If you give the Model number such as 230 etc. and engine size and Series. (not Vin) it is possible someone on Forum may be able to advise you better.

 

[Communicator]

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone can help? We're very desperate now :-(

My mum was widowed in 2019 and had always gone away caravanning with dad for most of their 40 years married life together. In 2020 she decided to purchase a 2005 Fiat Ducato Autotrail from Maquis, as she missed those days and felt ready to give it a go on her own. They didn't have anything in her budget range, except for this one, which was shipped in from elsewhere (god knows where??) She fell in love with it instantly and bought it there on the spot!

Ever since she's had nothing but (severe) trouble with it. The immobiliser light would come on whilst driving and simply turn the whole thing off - engine - everything! Very scary indeed.

The first time it happened in 2021, after much investigation to the fuel side of things (the engine would turn over sporadically, but no fuel would get to the engine) it was eventually pinned down to the ECU failing after 2 months sat in Fiat and going back and forth with Cartech towards the end in Cornwall. They sent back 2 x refurbished Bosch ECU's (ECU 1 + 2 they called them) plus the original. But, Fiat totally ignored their instructions (they said to try the cloned EC1 first and then ECU2 if that didn't work) but ended up putting the original back in too and said that it was working again. Fiat totally ignored their instructions and just put the original back in as they had got fed up of the job and wanted to send it back home to us! ECU 2 had to be sent back to Cartech as it wasn't paid for and was a favour from them, and we ended up with ECU1 as a spare.

Anyway, after 6 months use, it happened again in 2022! This time it went to another garage for a further 2 months. Exact same issues. Exact same outcome. They tried the cloned ECU 1 as well as tinkering with the original and only the original seemed to work eventually again (again, after a lot of work being done on the fuel pump, injectors etc etc).

She managed to get 1000 miles out of it this past year and ONCE AGAIN - it failed to start again on site on her first trip out in May this year! Immobiliser light back on, no start. The original ECU has been checked by a different company and they said it's dud - only works sporadically, especially when it gets warm/hot. ECU1 clone was also sent to this company, they de-immobilised it last week and nothing. No fault codes, no immobiliser light, nothing. It's just dead and fails to communicate.

When the garage manages to get the original to work temporarily again, it talks to everything ok, but it's not creating enough pressure before the injectors fire. They said they've also replaced the DRV valve? Ad when it's disconnected from the regulator, there's too much rail pressure! (I have no idea what any of this means, so I'm hoping I'm explaining it correctly?)

We're feeling like that's it. There's nothing that can be done with it. It has to be scrapped, as no one can help :-( But the van is lovely, immaculate and has very low milage and worth over £20k - it seems crazy to have to do that??! But we really don't know where to turn with it next.

It seems the Bosch ECU is very hard to find and when I looked up the part number, all the issues we're experiencing are listed as known faults on their site, they're exactly the same!

Has anyone else experienced this same issue at all? And if so, did you manage to find a solution??

To date, we've used Cartech in Cornwall, Pelican Diagnostics and AC Tronics now for the ECU work and all say the original has full comms, but only works sporadically and is affected by heat. ECU 1 reports are very sketchy and dont correspond with each other at all (AC Tronics said there was no data on it, yet Cartech said they cloned it over perfectly. Pelican said last week that he had full comms with it and was working fine. Arrrggghhh!)

I really hope someone can shed some light on this and can help my poor mum in some way. It's making her very ill (she shouldn't have to be dealing with ongoing stress this at the age of 74!)

Thank you in advance, her daughter, Natalie

Hi Natalie,
That's a lot for an old man to absorb.
From my perspective 74 could rate as young.

Nothing strange about your widowed Mum going solo in a MH. I can think of 4 others posting on MH specific forums, and I think that one has mentioned a Facebook group.

Your Mum's vehicle will be an x244 model, as given by the first 3 numbers of the VIN. i.e.ZFA244...........
However you have not stated the engine size e.g, 2,8jtd, 2.3jtd, or 2.0jtd

The following are comments on salient points from your narrative. Please add more if I have missed somthing of importance.

1. The immobiliser should not operate while driving. Yes very scary, and potentially lethal.
2.. Even with immobiliser light showing, the starter motor should turn the engine over. The engine will not fire, as no fuel injected.
3. Since fuel pressure is mentioned, I am equating DRV with the fuel pressure regulator, which controls the high fuel pressure fed to the injectors, and which is itself controlled by the ECU.
4. When looking about 18 months ago, I had no difficulty in finding ECUs for the 2,8jtd on Ebay, but these would need to be cloned in order to match with the code receiver.

The problem with the engine cutting out in service, suggests a loss power supply. This could be due to a fault (micro crack) in the ECU, which opens when it warms up. I am not sure how this would link up with the immobiliser system, but my thinking is that you may have to switch the ignition off, and on again in order to reactivate the key recognition, and hence the ECU. Other possibilities include a faulty ignition switch, or connection to/from the switch.

Given a sound battery, the starter motor should turn the engine over, irrespective of electronic key recognition. Failure to do so could be due to several possible causes. Which include corroded negative cable at chassis earth point below front end of battery, faulty starter assembly, faulty ignition switch, and faulty supply to ignition switch via engine bay fusebox. The x244 model does not suffer from earth connection faults to the extent that applies to later (post 2006) x250 model. However internal corrosion has been reported in the "flag" terminal which makes the chassis earth.. The engine bay fusebox also, ccan suffer from internal bad connections, particularly if water has got in.

 

[Mike1alike]

Considering fuel pressure problem and the detail that it particularly appears while engine is hot, I would recommend replacing the crankshaft sensor, or having it tested. It is not expensive and it is known for this misbehave when getting hot. If it's not completely out of business, it does no throw an error, which makes it difficult to diagnose for some people. ECU controls the fuel injection based on the readings transmitted by the crankshaft sensor.
You should also measure the battery's charging state. If it's drained, it doesn't help and usually an immo error appears on low battery voltage.

 

[bugsymike]

Considering fuel pressure problem and the detail that it particularly appears while engine is hot, I would recommend replacing the crankshaft sensor, or having it tested. It is not expensive and it is known for this misbehave when getting hot. If it's not completely out of business, it does no throw an error, which makes it difficult to diagnose for some people. ECU controls the fuel injection based on the readings transmitted by the crankshaft sensor.
You should also measure the battery's charging state. If it's drained, it doesn't help and usually an immo error appears on low battery voltage.

Nothing impossible, but the two over the years I have experienced with crankshaft sensor failure were as you say both when hot but did give a stored Error code and once cooled down restarted and drove fine, one on a Fiat Doblo , the other on a petrol Vauxhall Corsa.
Also I believe from other Members contribution the rev counter doesn't react on cranking engine as another indication of that fault.

 

[natsul73]

Hi Natalie,
That's a lot for an old man to absorb.
From my perspective 74 could rate as young.

Nothing strange about your widowed Mum going solo in a MH. I can think of 4 others posting on MH specific forums, and I think that one has mentioned a Facebook group.

Your Mum's vehicle will be an x244 model, as given by the first 3 numbers of the VIN. i.e.ZFA244...........
However you have not stated the engine size e.g, 2,8jtd, 2.3jtd, or 2.0jtd

The following are comments on salient points from your narrative. Please add more if I have missed somthing of importance.

1. The immobiliser should not operate while driving. Yes very scary, and potentially lethal.
2.. Even with immobiliser light showing, the starter motor should turn the engine over. The engine will not fire, as no fuel injected.
3. Since fuel pressure is mentioned, I am equating DRV with the fuel pressure regulator, which controls the high fuel pressure fed to the injectors, and which is itself controlled by the ECU.
4. When looking about 18 months ago, I had no difficulty in finding ECUs for the 2,8jtd on Ebay, but these would need to be cloned in order to match with the code receiver.

The problem with the engine cutting out in service, suggests a loss power supply. This could be due to a fault (micro crack) in the ECU, which opens when it warms up. I am not sure how this would link up with the immobiliser system, but my thinking is that you may have to switch the ignition off, and on again in order to reactivate the key recognition, and hence the ECU. Other possibilities include a faulty ignition switch, or connection to/from the switch.

Given a sound battery, the starter motor should turn the engine over, irrespective of electronic key recognition. Failure to do so could be due to several possible causes. Which include corroded negative cable at chassis earth point below front end of battery, faulty starter assembly, faulty ignition switch, and faulty supply to ignition switch via engine bay fusebox. The x244 model does not suffer from earth connection faults to the extent that applies to later (post 2006) x250 model. However internal corrosion has been reported in the "flag" terminal which makes the chassis earth.. The engine bay fusebox also, ccan suffer from internal bad connections, particularly if water has got in.

Hello,

Thank you for your detailed reply - I'll pass this and the other info onto my mechanic. The garage the van is in are fuel specialists - they've admitted anything other than this, bamboozles them. So I think it's time to arrange recovery to an old school mechanic by the sounds of it?

I couldn't a way to edit my original post to provide you with the details you need? So, here they are:

The van is a Tracker Se, engine size 2300, Coachbuilt - Low Profile

The garage emailed this breakdown of what's been done to date and sent to Cartech today, the ECU guys - it will make more sense to you guys than it does me LOL!

From what I make out the dealership suspected an ECU problem but being an older vehicle no longer able to obtain a brand new ecu for the application/part number Bosch 0 281 010 488 - EDC15C7

So you guys supplied two ecus as above owners still have ECU1, and we have tried to see if fixes the problem to no joy; has communication but no fuel rail pressure is being generated, so the injectors wont even been signalled to start the engine because of this.

The original fault with the vehicle was non-start/ immobiliser issue also indication of padlock on instrument cluster.
I suspect Salmons may of fitted one of the two or even both? unsure tbh of what and had comms with the ecu as this what we find also, but having the same issue we had no fuel rail pressure being created.
Any way they went down the route of taking the HP fuel pump off and sent to us for testing, we replaced/renewed the fuel pump m-prop regulator and the pump was tested all okay on the bench.
They ended up putting the engine/vehicle back together and refitted the original ecu and got it all running okay.

Been told by the owner when we got the van middle of March, last year 2023 it was okay for this time period from collecting the van back from Salmons for about 6 months or so? till it broke down with same alike symptoms.

We had exactly the same issues when we got it originally with us the vehicles original ecu has no comms/immobiliser light etc again.
Tried the ecu you guys supplied to basically the same issue but having no fuel rail pressure being created.

ECU1 one you supplied fitted does have full communication with diagnostic gear and no immobiliser light, then we carried out further fuel pressure system checks on the vehicle.
With after a lot of to and froing; fitting the original ecu had full comms again got the vehicle running but had very high rail pressure!?
Ordered a new rail pressure sensor fitted it to the common rail; went to try it but when we did again no comms with original ecu!?

Ended up sending original ECU to ACtronics near us with the key and immobiliser box for them to carry out repairs they found with the original ECU, back to us we refitted had full comms and got running all okay again.

Over a year later and the vehicle has covered 1408 miles in this time period, as it’s a motorhome the owner was just pitching up on site engine running it just cut out with the same problem no start and immobiliser light back up on cluster.

We had the vehicle back to us end of March went through checking over the wiring and other things they may of caused possible issues, got the cloned ecu again from the owner you guys supplied had all the same issues again as above full comms but no fuel rail pressure?
Again covering engine/fuel checks to no further indication of an issue this side.
Fitted original ecu again after some time had comms got the engine running! Ran for about 10 minutes and stop and started the engine a good half a dozen times refitted the vehicle all back together, to then back to the same issue no comms and start!

ACtronics then had the original ecu back and said cannot communicate with it either; so we cannot repair no further?
They had the cloned ECU1 from you guys and they have tested it all okay to our knowledge, tried refitting but still the same full comms, no faults but no fuel rail pressure being created?

Bosch ecu website do list the common and issues we are having with this ecu, Productdetails | Bosch (bosch-repair-service.com).

 

[bugsymike]

Sounds like this fuel/diesel company did as much as they could for you after it was dropped in their hands by Salmon's after their mechanics didn't follow CarSofts fitting instructions and then misdiagnosed the diesel pump being the fault so hence the diesel specialist became involved costing more or am I wrong?
I suspect a really good diagnostic specialist may be required and fully explain what has been done, to see if they even want to take it on. I know this sounds bad , but as I said before, it is always much harder after others have been involved.
Down here we have a good diagnostic company that the motortrade uses when all else fails. Maybe there is a similar one in your area that the trade has confidence in, not just one full of talk!
It is strange it ran for 1400 miles and roughly a year later it failed that makes it harder to trace the cause.
The trouble is in my mind it is nearly 20 years old and if it was a work van instead of a Motor Home it would only be worth around £2k so getting parts for it is that much harder.
Basically Dealer mechanics are mostly working on the latest models, not 20 year old ones so they are less familiar with them.
Car makers are not legally obliged to supply parts for older vehicles.
None of this helps your mother I know sadly, I am just trying to explain how mechanics may perceive it.
If all else fails then what I mentioned about a old school mechanic using parts from a running vehicle that has been scrapped may be a route to consider.

 

[Communicator]

@natsul73

Hi Natalie,

I will try to absorb at least some of the detail from the report that you have copied.

In the meantime I have attached a copy of an explanation of the diesel engine common rail system. It has numerous diagrams, and if you scroll through it you will find explanations of several of the items mentioned in relation to your Mum's vehicle, which is now established as a Ducato x244 2.3jtd. Several of the example systems in the course (Bosch) are used on your Mum's vehicle. I suggest that when time permits, you scroll through the document and only dip into the relevant parts. You should then have some understanding of what iyour mechanic is talking about.

 

[cris1117]

Colchester fuel injection is the go to company in Essex.