Tuning manda 16v

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Tuning manda 16v

My thoughts are that you can't get a 6 speed FIAT gearbox with suitable ratios for a Panda and that an LSD is the most expensive disappointment you could think of to improve performance with your current spec. I would concentrate on making the car handle better with anti-roll bars, stiffer springs and the best tyres you can afford- perhaps moving to 14" rims to get better tyre choice. If you do only few miles a year, then consider 175/60r13 semi-slicks from Yokohama or Toyo.
 
Thanks for reply. Like i said I was only daydreaming, I have not committed to any gearbox modification yet and little to no research has gone into this. The Panda 'box works well enough and I am pretty sure it will stay where it is for the forseeable future. If serviced and treated properly, it will serve me well for many more miles.

Re tyres and springs, I already splashed out on Toyo proxes all around in the exact size you suggested. I have also fitted a set of Spax lowering springs.
Sure, the road handling has improved massively! But, if i push the car in tight corners or around a roundabout in a, lets say, 'spirited' way, I still get one of the front wheels losing grip.
Of course, the cheapest and possibly most sensible solution would be to learn the limits of current setup and drive accordingly, but i can't stop being curious on what are the options out there.
Also you mention a 6 speed gearbox might not be a sensible choice for a Panda. Are we talking about a dog legged 1st gear thats no use whatsoever? Is a 5 speed box off a mk1 sporting a better alternative?
 
Thanks for reply. Like i said I was only daydreaming, I have not committed to any gearbox modification yet and little to no research has gone into this. The Panda 'box works well enough and I am pretty sure it will stay where it is for the forseeable future. If serviced and treated properly, it will serve me well for many more miles.

Re tyres and springs, I already splashed out on Toyo proxes all around in the exact size you suggested. I have also fitted a set of Spax lowering springs.
Sure, the road handling has improved massively! But, if i push the car in tight corners or around a roundabout in a, lets say, 'spirited' way, I still get one of the front wheels losing grip.
Of course, the cheapest and possibly most sensible solution would be to learn the limits of current setup and drive accordingly, but i can't stop being curious on what are the options out there.
Also you mention a 6 speed gearbox might not be a sensible choice for a Panda. Are we talking about a dog legged 1st gear thats no use whatsoever? Is a 5 speed box off a mk1 sporting a better alternative?

Well, it's good to be curious about the options. Do you have R888s on? Great tyre, but perhaps not at the moment though. Current weather will make any tyre feel poor. I have Michelin winter tyres on at the moment and they are superb in reality, but still mean I can lose traction on roundabouts in the morning when exiting with half throttle. Tight corners like a roundabout are never going to be good in a Panda due mostly to the cheap front suspension design. An Uno is like a racing car in comparison with its "actual wishbone" suspension. A new or better set of shock will help to iron out small bumps that help start wheel spin in corners and softer tyres help to not lose grip in the first place with their lower pressure-to-grip requirements, but other than that the mechanical grip the car has is poor and that is that IMO. You can simply learn to drive around the problems and feed throttle in more carefully and carry speed when you can; talking more track than road of course. Fitting a front anti-roll bar from a Y10 improves roll massively and provides a good balanced setup, but will not improve traction through tight or very fast cornering- it will make it worse due to lowering the compliance of the front suspension. Stiffening up the rear significantly could be a solution to making the car handle in a more lively way that might make the car feel less under-steering and boring, but probably won't actually improve speed through corners much or at all. I've got the same Spax springs as you and find them stiff enough. I've got Bilstein gas dampers and the aforementioned front anti-roll bar. I find this fine with 125BHP and loads of torque, but perhaps all this is really about our expectations of cars, of which modern ones have enormous mechanical grip.
 
. Do you have R888s on?
No, in my opinion they are too much of a compromise for everyday driving, and the wear rate, even in a light car like the panda, was a bit worrying. My 2 choices were proxes CF1 or yokos A539, I decided to go for the proxes (on special at camskill).

.
perhaps all this is really about our expectations of cars, of which modern ones have enormous mechanical grip
You are right. I have access to a few other, more modern, more powerful (but not as fun) vehicles, so I suspect my expectations are a little biased.

New shocks are already on next month shopping list. and now a Y10 anti roll bar, I am sure that will be easy to find... :rolleyes::(
Were they fitted to every Y10 or only certain models?
 
All Y10's had them. You best source is probably someone on here who may have a secret stash perhaps. I don't know where else to ask really as so few are around, even in Lancia circles.

About tyres, I was not convinced by CF1s in a similar size, but they are better than budget of course. A tyre like a Continental Sport Contact or Toyo T1-R is a massive step up in grip from the 13" tyres that are offered and they return OK wear rates. It is a shame that the Panda is so limited on what tyres can be fitted and indeed what you would actually want to fit to it.
 
About tyres, I was not convinced by CF1s in a similar size, but they are better than budget of course.
Were they fitted to your Panda? Thats the annoying thing about shopping for tyres, especially the so called premium ones. A tyre might work well on one car, and not so well on another. No matter how many reviews you read, and how much window shopping you do, there is always something/someone that suggests you should have put your money elsewhere. Shame you can't try before you buy!
Can't complain though, compared to the Pirelli p700 i used to have, the car feels like it is on rails. The rubber compound feels much softer, so good for reducing that annoying tendency to understeer. I would think when the weather will warm up, they will grip even more.


I think a better source could be scrapyards in Italy. Many Y10 were sold there, and a fair few are still on the road as we speak. Now, where did I put my passport....:p
 
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Google 'Lancia Y10 breakers' and from memory the first place is a guy who specialises in breaking Lancias. I phoned him last year and within 10 minutes had a set of radius arms and the anti roll bar in the post less than 50 squid!

The bushes are expensive now though.

Anyway with regard to making Panda's handle better.

The key is in stiffening the rear.

The 'lowered' springs you can buy are lower than standard ones, actually by quite a lot, but the spring rate is still far too low.

I had bilstein dampers all round with lowering springs and a Lancia Y10 ARB; the front end was pretty responsive and I had good trust in the grip levels but the back end was very wallowly. Probably to a dangerous level if you tried negotiating sharp 'S's at rediculous speeds.

In the end I went to the local scrap dealers and got some springs from a Ford Focus. The spring rate was about 3 times as hard and then it was fine.

Anyway with my turbo build, I've lowered the engine 2 inches in the bay to bring the centre of gravity down and its got front and rear braces. Coupled with obese wheels and tyres it should be alright now.
 
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Manda 16v has gone through a major engine overhaul.. It was burning oil and there was a fair bit or blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. There also was a leak at the Cam box gasket, oil was dripping on the exhaust manifold giving the car an unpleasant greasy, oily smell. That bad that i was getting headaches if driven more than 20mins..Not what I call a tidy motor! Also, although my mot is not due for another 5 months, there was no way she would have passed emissions.! It had to be sorted as soon as possible because I am enjoying so much the benefits of the engine swap.
There are 3 reasons why an engine would burn oil and smoke. 1; valve stems seals worn (easiest and cheapest option) 2, valve guides worn (not cheap and only a machine shop can do it, and probably means one or more valves might be worn or slightly bent) 3. Piston oil rings faulty (not cheap, but a possible DIY job)

So, I got the car off the road, borrowed a mates car to take me back and forth to work, and started working on the car.
First the head had to come off for inspection. I found the valves had a ridiculous amount of carbon deposit and had a shiny sticky film, which indicated oil was definitely getting where it shouldn't.



So I took the head down my favourite engine rebuilder/engineering shop in charlton , south London. Had the man inspecting the head, valves, seals, springs and to give a good clean and a gentle skim.



When I got it back he said there was nothing wrong with seals and valves, so i went ahead and ordered a set of piston rings and a set of new end shells. I now narrowed down the fault, but my wallet was feeling the pain..
It is is a fairly easy job to do, provided you have the tools and patience to see it through. The main issue is that, because you have to turn the crankshaft to get the pistons out, you lose your timing completely. Remember the 1242 16v have no timing marks.. Fun fun fun....
So carried on I cleaned up the pistons nicely, fitted new rings and shells and finally gave a quick hone to the cylinders to help the new rings to wear in.
I then went on and fitted a new head gasket. Now, I recommend anyone doing this job, to pay particular attention to this step. I found that it is possible to get the gasket the wrong way around, and that would block the flow of oil to the head and cambox. You have been warned!
Here is a pic with gqsket around the wrong way.



As I started to refit the cambox, I was unhappy on the resistance i could feel when i was turning the sprocket by hand. So, took a trip to the machine shop again. He overhauled it, resealed it and now the cams turn beautifully.
Went back and fitted it to the newly installed head. And that's when disaster struck. As i tightened one of the bolts that hold the cambox to the head, the thread in the head stripped. At this point I was nearly in tears. luckily, it was a fairly easy repair with an m8 helicoil insert. The original bolt was replaced by a m8 cap head bolt. It torqued well, and big sigh of relief from me....
Now comes the fun part..... Timing!
The good news is that there are only 2 coil packs, so there are only 2 possible combinations of timing. This is a "wasted spark" engine, so the spark plugs operate in the exhaust stroke as well.
The bad news is that if I time the engine 180, to set it right, the cambox has to be loosened in order to allow the crank to turn 180. Otherwise, at the end of the stroke (when i turn the crank with a spanner) 2 pistons will hit 4 valves, possibly causing damage.
Sure enough, the fist time I got I wrong. Soul destroying.
Anyway, after all this, I got it timed correctly. I let it run a good half hour to 40 mins on idle, with the odd little play on the throttle every so often. It reached good temperature, no leaks, no weird noises... Test drive went well. Nothing fell off and it run exceptionally smooth.


Gave myself a pat on the back, had a little dance and celebrated with a few beverages down the pub ( I owed my mate a few drinks for lending me his motor)
Yes, the engine is running again, better, cleaner, cooler. No more leaks, no more messy driveway. Most importantly, hopefully I have extended its life enough to live as long as the panda.
Long live the manda!
 
Yes, good job. There aren't many Mk1 Punto 16v engines left that don't need this sort of work if you want them to survive. There is going to be a tipping point soon where a Mk1 Punto 16v is not going to be the recommended route and people should start using the better, later incarnations of the 1.2 16v, but still using the old electronics perhaps.
 
To be honest, I thought about not repairing this engine, bite the bullet and get a mk2. I wasn't comfortable going out shopping for another engine, there aren't many guarantees when you buy a second hand unit. I wasn't willing to take that gamble again. There are a number of reasons why the donor car would have been scrapped, and could have been engine related, so i decided to stick with the devil I know.. Another problem is that the exhaust manifold is different on the mk1 and mk2. I want to get (eventually) an aftermarket manifold but I wanted to keep the cat under the car, not as a minicat. Also the mk1 has an all important 5 to 8 extra bhp compared to the mk2... So that pretty much made up my mind! :)
 
Holy **** - you did a very impressive job there!

I know what you mean about the fun of the Mk1 16v engine. I rebuilt mine with new bottom end shells and as you say, once you take it apart some genius designed it with no timing marks!

Had to use a Kent Cams dial gauge to work out the timing. Was quite time consuming / interesting.

Good job :)
 
Thanks you for your positive comments, it makes it all worthwhile! (y)


as you say, once you take it apart some genius designed it with no timing marks!

No obvious timing marks, but! There's an offset dimple on the crankshaft timing belt sprocket that allows to locate the alternator-powersteering pump pulley correctly in reference to the crank sensor. It needs to be located towards the bulkhead, not the front of the car. in that position, no1 piston is on its down stroke, no2 on up stroke, which is the correct combination to get the timing right.
I wish I noted that when i disassembled my engine. It would have saved me a bit of aggravation :eek:
 
Just done the MOT today. Everything good, emissions were extremely close to the limit, particularly the CO.
The tester wanted to fail it as he reckoned the foglight was not working. I was really surprised to hear that as I dont think I ever pressed the foglight button since I'm driving it. So, scratching my head I walked towards the car, already thinking I am gonna have to fork out 10 quid to have the garage to fit a light bulb. It turns out that he had the headlights off when he was trying to turn on the foglight :rolleyes:.
So another MOT for 12 months, only one advisory, the exhaust is blowing a bit. True, as I have to tidy up the modded exhaust system.
So all good, another year of smiles and upsetting boy racers in their fiesta:)
 
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