General Looking for a fun 2nd car (£5k max) to drive around Yorkshire Dales in at the weekends. Talk me out of an old high mileage 2011-ish Fiat 500 TwinAir!

[DutchWheels]

Sold my motorbike a year or so ago, won't be getting back on one any time soon and want a fun car to drive around country lanes in at the weekends and just generally have as a runabout. So not really looking for a "sensible and safe" car, but something to put a smile on my face.

Will probably do about 6000 miles a year, if that. Budgeting around £5k which currently looks like it would get me 60000 miles (best case) mileage and maybe a 2011 plate. Reading reviews etc for the last few days TwinAir sounds like a lot of fun to drive, and a soft-top 'c' variant might be a fun addition too! All possible within a £5k budget - but from what I've been reading here it also sounds like a recipe for potentially very high repair bills.

Low MPG costs I'm not that bothered about, but don't want to be spending £1000 every year for the next few years to keep a 10+ year old car on the road.

My heart says 'just got for it, costs be damned!' have fun and live a little. My head says 'just get a Skoda Citigo and enjoy that instead'

Would only a fool buy a 500 (1.2, 0.9, any of them!) of that age and mileage? Can anyone suggest any other fun little car options to bomb around the countryside in for a £5k budget?

Who better to ask than strangers on the internet Thanks!

 

[AdamFiat]

Ever thought of a Punto, Seicento, or Cinquecento? They’re just options but I thought I’d mention them.

 

[mj2k]

Depending on how much fun you want, if you don't mind a bit of work looks like there's a nice modified Seicento Schumacher in the For Sale section at them moment which needs rescuing. Or if you can find one in decent condition, how about an older Abarth 500, though zero chance of getting one of those with a soft top for under 5k.

Otherwise that twinair could be fun...

 

[Troubles with 500c]

I would be inclined to go for an older BMW Z4. You should be able to find a pampered low mileage one for that budget.

They’re fun to drive and screwed together well. The best part about driving one is that you don’t have to look at it.

Also, I reckon prices have probably bottomed out and you won’t suffer much in the way of deprecation.

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

First, a couple of questions:

will this be your only car?

and

how much maintenance can you do for yourself?

If you're going to use a garage whenever anything needs attention, then I'd say only shelling out £1000pa on maintenance on a 10yr old car means you're been very lucky indeed.

I've followed all the TA failure posts since this engine launched, and I've been saying for a long time that I wouldn't consider a TA unless buying new and trading in before the end of the manufacturers warranty. It's certainly true that there have been folks who've run these for 100,000 miles+ without issues, but I've seen too many cases of expensive failures well below 50,000 miles. Be aware also that there isn't much public domain information available to help with anything beyond routine servicing. General independent garages often don't have the knowledge or tools to fix significant engine faults, and using a franchised dealer will cost a small fortune. The TA isn't a car I'd want to run in later life (the car's, that is) on a budget.

From what you've posted so far, I'd suggest you look seriously at the Suzuki Swift Sport.

Or if you can find one in decent condition, how about an older Abarth 500, though zero chance of getting one of those with a soft top for under 5k.

Perhaps not, but you would get a decent NA 1.4 500C for that money. I'd certainly have more confidence in one than in either a TA or an A500 of similar vintage/mileage.

Sticking with Fiats, if you'd asked the same question five years ago, I'd have suggested a Panda 100HP, but those that are still left are now mostly too worn and tired to be worth considering.

 

[mj2k]

I would be inclined to go for an older BMW Z4. You should be able to find a pampered low mileage one for that budget.

They’re fun to drive and screwed together well. The best part about driving one is that you don’t have to look at it.

Also, I reckon prices have probably bottomed out and you won’t suffer much in the way of deprecation.

Think we should stick to Fiats (or small cars) generally or I'm likely to throw the Subaru Legacy 3.0 R Spec B (manual) or 2.0R into the equation - pretty cheap, great in the snow (unlike the Z4), 3.0 will reach 200k without major issues if maintained properly (120-140k otherwise) and the 3.0 (maybe 2.0R too) will kick a Z4 into the weeds on twisty country roads, whilst carrying a christmas tree (been there, done that in a modified 2.0)

Though 22mpg average at best might be a bit eye-watering even for someone who isn't so concerned about fuel economy...

I'd say the Abarth 500 is lots of frantic Italian fun within budget (just about), or if the twinair is an issue, how about a 1.4 500 or one of these Panda 100bhps which everyone goes on about (though I have no idea what they're like)?

 

[Ralf S.]

TA is the one you want. Buy the best one you can afford.. but don't necessarily obsess on mileage alone. I would tend to find a low owner example, so if they weren't Neanderthals, then the car should have been looked after properly and will be in better condition for it.

Give it an oil and filter change... including change the little filter in the multi-air doodah for a new one and change the oil once a year after that (at your mileage) with the correct grade to the "Fiat spec' " rating, which helps keep the doodah unclogged .. and it'll be fine, I'm sure.

Clean oil is a must for the TA.. and having new/low mileage oil in it will keep it clean internally since oil has a detergent effect which wears out when the oil does miles or over a period of time. If the previous has put the wrong spec' oil in it, that might cause some of the blocking of the filter mesh that seems to precede mechanical issues with the valve-gear.


Ralf S.

 

[DutchWheels]

Wow - lots of replies already. Thanks all. Always nice to find an active forum with genuinely helpful folk!

In reply to some of the stuff above...

will this be your only car?

Nope, we have family car for daily duties. I'm a 42 year old bloke and this is just going to be a small fun car for me to drive around in to get out into the Dales etc, and take the dog places to go on walks.

how much maintenance can you do for yourself?

Despite owning crappy motorbikes for over a decade and commuting and playing on those, I've never really got my hands oily. Changing chains, wheels and spark plugs is as far as I've got really. Not adverse to learning some of the easier DIY stuff though!

Think we should stick to Fiats (or small cars) generally

Agreed. Not sure why a small car appeals but it just does. Also, for whatever reason, I can't see myself driving a BWM - it just doesn't appeal at all I'm afraid. I'm sure they're great cars but if I was to go the BWM route I'd get a Mini

The Suzuki Swift mentioned above could be good, I've had Suzuki cars and bikes before and always liked them so I'll look into those too.

The Fiat 500 really does appeal though, as I'm sure a lot of you here understand. With that in mind I will have a look into the older 1.4's and the Abarths too - but lookig quickly the ones that appear close to my budget seem to be older, pre 2009-ish. Some of you seem to vote for older 'regular' engined cars rather than the TwinAirs. I understand that it's a much trickier engine to work on though so I think I get that.

What about the little 1.3 diesel engines - how to they generally fare next to their petrol counterparts in mileage/reliability?

TA is the one you want. Buy the best one you can afford.. but don't necessarily obsess on mileage alone. I would tend to find a low owner example, so if they weren't Neanderthals, then the car should have been looked after properly and will be in better condition for it.

Looking again today there are a few 40k TwinAirs for less than £5k, but all have >5 owners which seems like a red flag

What I really want is an old Suzuki Jimny to putter around in, but I'm unable to find one that's not corroded really badly.

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

If your dog is well trained and can spot overtaking opportunities you could get a Barchetta. Not sure if you'd get a rot free one for that sort of money though

 

[John202020]

If you want a 500 sensible people would buy the tried and trusted 1.2 but bank on spending £1000 an new parts that you fit yourself.

My first thought for a fun dales car would be a MX5 ?

 

[DutchWheels]

If you're going to use a garage whenever anything needs attention, then I'd say only shelling out £1000pa on maintenance on a 10yr old car means you're been very lucky indeed.

About this - I think I have been very lucky with vehicles all my life for the most part. We has a Ford Focus that died and wasn't worth repairing, but that's the worst I can remember and we'd had it so long it wasn't worth anything anyway. Other repairs I've had have never been anything major and I've been driving cars for 26 years. So I think I've had a very fortunate and unusually sheltered life when it comes to the bad side of car ownership.

If I did end up with a bad example of a 10 year old car, TwinAir or even 1.2 or otherwise, repair costs could come to more than £1k/year then?

 

[mj2k]

If you want a 500 sensible people would buy the tried and trusted 1.2 but bank on spending £1000 an new parts that you fit yourself.

My first thought for a fun dales car would be a MX5 ?

Ooh, MX5 sounds like a good idea

(and vaguely Fiat related since the later gen of MX5 is the same as the later Fiat 124)

Lots of people have plenty of fun in a 1.2 500 cabriolet, so that sounds like another option... I stand to be corrected but except for starship mileages I'd have said the main thing you need to worry about with older Abarths / 500s is rot in the rear suspension arms / inner front wings, assuming they haven't been run on treacle or left for years without a cambelt change. Oh, and watch for Cat N / S Abarths - they do tend to bend quite badly in crashes (which is part of why they're pretty safe for such a tiny car - good crumple zones) so you'd need proof / receipts they'd been fixed properly.

 

[jrkitching]

If I did end up with a bad example of a 10 year old car, TwinAir or even 1.2 or otherwise, repair costs could come to more than £1k/year then?

Well, there's a chap on the Panda forum right now with a TA who's just had a £6k bill for a worn out clutch & flywheel. One owner, 25000 miles, less than 6 years old.

As has already been said, if you could find a 10yr old one that didn't need 1k spending right now on parts (easily double that if not doing the work yourself), it'd be the exception, not the rule.

The 500 has a design life of perhaps 10-12 years and whilst build quality is generally OK, parts longevity is not the best. Once past that point, then despite the galvanised bodyshell, you'll likely find potentially serious corrosion in the steel components (sumps, subframes, etc), and we also see a steady stream of posts from folks with a variety of electrical and electronic problems in the older cars. The 500's kerb appeal, combined with the current hugely inflated used car prices, make this a car that's well worth considering if buying new, but a poor choice for those looking for a reliable, cheap to maintain used car.

I like the 500 - a lot - but I'm realistic about its limitations, and the issues commonly found on older, well used examples.

 

[AdamFiat]

Of course, if you do decide to stay with Italian cars, you may be able to source an Alfa Romeo Mito for under £5k but I genuinely do not know.

 

[John202020]

The 500 has a design life of perhaps 10-12 years

Oh dear, we're already past 12 years old,,,,, and don't even mention the water pump!

 

[DutchWheels]

Well, there's a chap on the Panda forum right now with a TA who's just had a £6k bill for a worn out clutch & flywheel....

... a poor choice for those looking for a reliable, cheap to maintain used car...

I like the 500 - a lot - but I'm realistic about its limitations, and the issues commonly found on older, well used examples.

Thanks for the info @jrkitching, really appreciate it. I'm not in a particular rush so I'll take my time making any decisions, but the info you and others are sharing here is invaluable, thanks.

At the end of the day it'll either come down to trying to find a well looked after car in my current budget and taking a gamble on it, OR upping my budget and trying to get something a bit newer instead. Hmm, lots to think on!

 

[jrkitching]

upping my budget and trying to get something a bit newer instead

There's a third option that just might be worth considering - up your budget and buy something a bit older. Take a moment or three to explore the world of classic cars. If you're not in a rush, the buying process itself could be hugely fun.

And five years from now, it'll quite likely be worth more than you paid for it, whereas a 10yr old TA 500 bought today could easily be worth next to nothing by then.

The caveat is you absolutely must have somewhere dry to keep it.

 

[RichardH13]

Our first 500 was a TA, it was great fun, sounded good. But it was written off after 6 months, not our fault, Toyota driver.....

Managed to get a good deal on a 500 Abarth for not much more than the TA. Ended up having 4 Abarths and if we could get elderly parents in and out, I'd have another.

Get an Abarth, you won't be able to wipe the smile off your face.

The drivetrain is bomb proof, more so than a TA, plenty of decent independent garages to look after it and it won't cost much more, if at all, more than the TA to maintain

 

[mj2k]

There's a third option that just might be worth considering - up your budget and buy something a bit older. Take a moment or three to explore the world of classic cars. If you're not in a rush, the buying process itself could be hugely fun.

And five years from now, it'll quite likely be worth more than you paid for it, whereas a 10yr old TA 500 bought today could easily be worth next to nothing by then.

The caveat is you absolutely must have somewhere dry to keep it.

I'm not so sure classic cars will be a good investment going forwards, much as I love classics and have owned many over the years, we're moving towards EVs now. And as we make that move the first casualties will be diesel and E5 super unleaded, which means many pre-2000 fuel injected cars will be scrap (if you can't remap the ecu they won't last long, and there are very few cars with a 'plug and play' 3rd party ecu), and the older carburettor cars will need rejetting, ignition changes, replacement pump diaphragms and rubber pipes to carry on working with higher ethanol content, which will affect prices to some degree since fuel economy and power will suffer even when converted. And those without hardened valve seats will still need a lead replacement additive as they do now. And just to throw another spanner into the v8, as EVs become more popular more and more petrol stations will turn into EV charging stations, maybe losing all their petrol pumps, so finding that vital 'vroom juice' will become increasingly hard (like finding leaded petrol when everything ran on unleaded; it was still available, but no forecourts carried it).

"Ev in a box" solutions aren't likely to be the solution either - there are a handful of classic cars which would benefit from an EV conversion (pre-70s estates/commercials, plus pre '95 Merc diesels and the original Citroen DS are the main ones I can think of) but many others will end up with terrible ranges through insufficient space to store the batteries, poor handling through an altered roll centre, poor braking through increased weight and most of the character which makes them desirable gone, which will seriously affect prices once the novelty wears off. I saw a video of an Alfa 156 EV conversion and looks aside, I'd never seen such a bland and tepid Italian car.

So in short I'd say now's a good time to sell a classic or to enjoy it whilst you can, but not to buy one as a long-term investment; within a few years many will be worthless, and the more expensive ones will be display pieces only.

The future's still bleak for more modern ICE cars as the petrol stations start to disappear, but in other ways no difference - they'll still depreciate as normal until they're worth whatever the 'scrappage' value is (that's bound to make a reappearance) and they can be remapped to deal with higher ethanol content as necessary (with some loss of power/economy).

Note - small 60s-70s economy cars designed to run on 2* won't be so badly affected as we move to higher ethanol content fuels since they were designed to work with lower grade fuel than they currently run on, the loss of power most likely won't alter their character much, and the loss in fuel economy could be lived with, as long as one of the remaining petrol stations is within range, or you can mail-order enough ethanol to fill their tiny tanks. So those with original 500s, 126s, BMW/ISO Isettas, 2CVs, etc will still be chugging along when most other classic car owners have thrown the towel in.

 

[Goudrons]

I hate to say this but if it was my £5000 I wouldn't spend it on a TA.

I've had a TA in a 4x4 Panda and it was fairly fault free for the 40 odd thousand miles I ran it, but I never had that much confidence in it compared to the FIRE 1.2's I've had.
I shifted it on soon after the warranty expired.

I did suffer a bit of a misfire in my time with it, I thought it was the start of a Multiair fault, but a fiddle/clean of the Multiair oil strainer and a new set of plugs seemed to sort it.

It's a bit of an odd engine and though it puts out more power than the 1.2 FIRE, it's set up to chug along in high gears as low rpm as peak torque is very low in the rpm range.
Rev it hard and it all became a bit painful, maybe the shorter 4x4 gears were to blame, but I've driven a few 2wd TA loaners over the years and they are left the same impression.

If it was my money and I wanted something to enjoy around the dales and moors I would spend it on the best Renaultsport Clio 197 I could find.
2 litre engine with just shy of 200hp without turbo (no lag) in a 1200kg car that doesn't look too Maxpower and flashy.
Look for a later car as early cars gearbox synros were known for wearing out and graunching.
Buy a stock car, look after it and keep it in good nic and it'll likely lose you nothing, they have future classic written all over them.