Technical Is panda cross gearbox the same as 319 4x4

[Telecomsuk]

I have panda 2013 319 4x4 24,000 miles, with gear change issues, replaced clutch master/slave cylinders,gear stick is not stiff,goes into to gear ok with engine running , but when trying to drive gears are almost impossible to find, intermittent violent vibration and sometimes feels like it will stall.
So I’m guessing Clutch/dmf/ damaged gear gearbox input shaft case.
My question is.is a 2017 panda gross gear box the same, I know they have that rotary button for hill decent etc but is that just software driven?
Local garage says it’s not worth repairing due to high labour costs.but I’m determined to fix her.

 

[WitleyPanda]

I cannot directly answer your question, but have recently change the gearbox on another vehicle might throw some other questions. Other than that production modifications to specific processes for parts, would be standard for a gearbox to fit all vehicles across a platform, or at least the core. When you say that difficult to select gears, is it the same for all gears, or for example is it worse 1-2, 3-4, rather than 2-3, 4-5? Has anyone looked at the rest of the transmission. Does the local garage actually have experience with this sort of configuration? Have they incorrectly assembled/set? At 24000 miles would be surprised that a gearbox manual issue, rather than the flywheel/clutch. ( the box I replaced had done 190,000 and core functionality still ok, known issue with output spline.) Assume you have access to a good 2017 gearbox? Good luck

 

[jrkitching]

Local garage says it’s not worth repairing due to high labour costs

Can you do the work yourself? This will make a big difference to the economic viability of repairing it.

If you need to take it to a garage, it might be better to sell it 'as is' and put the money toward something better. The risk of fitting a replacement 'box from a breakers is that you've no idea of its condition, and it will almost certainly have covered many more miles than the one you're taking out. If it doesn't work, the seller of the gearbox may give you a refund or a replacement, but they won't cover any of the labour costs to remove and replace it, which will be considerable.

Given the low mileage, I'd agree that the damage may not be that great. I'd be inclined to repair the 'box you have, rather than take a risk with an unknown used unit, but this is seemingly beyond the capabilities of most garages these days.

 

[Telecomsuk]

I have panda 2013 319 4x4 24,000 miles, with gear change issues, replaced clutch master/slave cylinders,gear stick is not stiff,goes into to gear ok with engine running , but when trying to drive gears are almost impossible to find, intermittent violent vibration and sometimes feels like it will stall.
So I’m guessing Clutch/dmf/ damaged gear gearbox input shaft case.
My question is.is a 2017 panda gross gear box the same, I know they have that rotary button for hill decent etc but is that just software driven?
Local garage says it’s not worth repairing due to high labour costs.but I’m determined to fix her.

Thanks for you reply, Panda is a virgin with regard to repairs, I have had since she was 2 years old, I have replaced hydraulics as advised by Stellantis.
I have seen various photos/videos of Fiat 500’s dmf bearing failing eating the casing around the input shaft, it can be rebuilt with alloy weld but is beyond garages as a repair because a dead car on a lift whilst repairs are done is costing them money. I’m leaning towards buying a salvage car and either taking what I need and sending the car to a garage with s/h gearbox or doing it my self, as long as the gearbox is 6 speed I can’t see why it would matter

 

[Telecomsuk]

Can you do the work yourself? This will make a big difference to the economic viability of repairing it.

If you need to take it to a garage, it might be better to sell it 'as is' and put the money toward something better. The risk of fitting a replacement 'box from a breakers is that you've no idea of its condition, and it will almost certainly have covered many more miles than the one you're taking out. If it doesn't work, the seller of the gearbox may give you a refund or a replacement, but they won't cover any of the labour costs to remove and replace it, which will be considerable.

Given the low mileage, I'd agree that the damage may not be that great. I'd be inclined to repair the 'box you have, rather than take a risk with an unknown used unit, but this is seemingly beyond the capabilities of most garages these days.

Hi thanks for the reply, Yes I can do the work skill wise, limiting factor is I’m nearly 70 and don’t like the cold anymore.. I think it’s the only way to save her, if .she’s goes to the garage and the gearbox is damaged it will be difficult to move the car because engine will need supporting other than a jack, and suspension will likely be in bits because there’s some chat that the subframe/ptu may need removing to get the gearbox out. There is so little on line and workshop manuals seem almost impossible to get. I have access to the online Haynes but it’s not like the old books.

 

[Panda IIs]

I have panda 2013 319 4x4 24,000 miles, with gear change issues, replaced clutch master/slave cylinders,gear stick is not stiff,goes into to gear ok with engine running , but when trying to drive gears are almost impossible to find, intermittent violent vibration and sometimes feels like it will stall.
So I’m guessing Clutch/dmf/ damaged gear gearbox input shaft case.
My question is.is a 2017 panda gross gear box the same, I know they have that rotary button for hill decent etc but is that just software driven?
Local garage says it’s not worth repairing due to high labour costs.but I’m determined to fix her.

Sounds like the clutch and DMF are dying; these are symptoms I experienced. First time at 48k miles and second around 90k. Here's some pictures at the last event, note the gnarly input shaft. The damage there was immaterial and all is fine on reassembly. Of course you don't know how it was treated in its previous life but I would doubt there was a mechanical issue with the gearbox. I do know that the Fiat specialist that did the first clutch swapped out the gear change cables first but that was a misdiagnosis.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Hi thanks for the reply, Yes I can do the work skill wise, limiting factor is I’m nearly 70 and don’t like the cold anymore.. I think it’s the only way to save her, if .she’s goes to the garage and the gearbox is damaged it will be difficult to move the car because engine will need supporting other than a jack, and suspension will likely be in bits because there’s some chat that the subframe/ptu may need removing to get the gearbox out. There is so little on line and workshop manuals seem almost impossible to get. I have access to the online Haynes but it’s not like the old books.

I'm nearly 70 to! Saving grace was friend with a barn and 4 post lift, but then a big 4x4. Thermal base layer, stay out the wind etc. Even the Hayes manuals don't cover a gearbox rebuild. I'm not convinced it actually the gearbox, at such a low mileage, particularly since it work when vehicle stationary. Could they have disturbed the selection mechanism?

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi thanks for the reply, Yes I can do the work skill wise, limiting factor is I’m nearly 70 and don’t like the cold anymore.. I think it’s the only way to save her, if .she’s goes to the garage and the gearbox is damaged it will be difficult to move the car because engine will need supporting other than a jack, and suspension will likely be in bits because there’s some chat that the subframe/ptu may need removing to get the gearbox out. There is so little on line and workshop manuals seem almost impossible to get. I have access to the online Haynes but it’s not like the old books.

On the PTU; I think above you suggest you need a 6 speed box which implies it's a TA. There is not an external PTU on the TA just the diesel multijet I believe (5 speed).

 

[Telecomsuk]

On the PTU; I think above you suggest you need a 6 speed box which implies it's a TA. There is not an external PTU on the TA just the diesel multijet I believe (5 speed).

Thanks for reply yes it is TA , I have spoken to the garage again, they don’t want the work because if the input shaft case is damaged it would mean sending the box out for repair and once it’s in bits it’s hard to move so block the ramp until fixed..
I have a transmission stand/trolley/jack, just ordered an engine support bar and a new torque wrench, just deciding if I will use a tent or gazebo to keep the wind off me.
I think I’m going to reverse onto ramps, the jack up the front and support on axle stands, I have 2 sets so they should be enough. And it should be high enough for my crawler board. I’m still looking for a guide so I don’t miss anything

 

[Telecomsuk]

Sounds like the clutch and DMF are dying; these are symptoms I experienced. First time at 48k miles and second around 90k. Here's some pictures at the last event, note the gnarly input shaft. The damage there was immaterial and all is fine on reassembly. Of course you don't know how it was treated in its previous life but I would doubt there was a mechanical issue with the gearbox. I do know that the Fiat specialist that did the first clutch swapped out the gear change cables first but that was a misdiagnosis.

Hi thanks for response does that mean you’ve had 2 gearboxes or did they alloy well and machine? It seems like it’s an inherent fault for 2 clutches to go in 90,000. My next research is can I in the dmf and fit standard flywheel and clutch, the local garage says they never know what’s in the 500’s despite most being listed as dmf.

 

[Telecomsuk]

Can you do the work yourself? This will make a big difference to the economic viability of repairing it.

If you need to take it to a garage, it might be better to sell it 'as is' and put the money toward something better. The risk of fitting a replacement 'box from a breakers is that you've no idea of its condition, and it will almost certainly have covered many more miles than the one you're taking out. If it doesn't work, the seller of the gearbox may give you a refund or a replacement, but they won't cover any of the labour costs to remove and replace it, which will be considerable.

Given the low mileage, I'd agree that the damage may not be that great. I'd be inclined to repair the 'box you have, rather than take a risk with an unknown used unit, but this is seemingly beyond the capabilities of most garages these days.

Hi thanks for response yes local garage send all clutches to a local clutch specialist now rather than spending 10 hrs repair a clutch at £78 per hour plus parts .
Yes I will do it my self now I know the garage don’t want to do the job. I may need to get the gearbox repaired ,but I will trying to find out if dmf can be replaced with standard flywheel and clutch

 

[jrkitching]

...but I will trying to find out if dmf can be replaced with standard flywheel and clutch

The early 85HP 2WD TA's didn't have a DMF, but IIRC the 105TA 2WD and all 4WD TA's had a DMF from launch.

I might risk retrofitting a 2wd 85TA with a solid flywheel, but on a 4x4, I wouldn't want to chance it myself.

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi thanks for response does that mean you’ve had 2 gearboxes or did they alloy well and machine? It seems like it’s an inherent fault for 2 clutches to go in 90,000. My next research is can I in the dmf and fit standard flywheel and clutch, the local garage says they never know what’s in the 500’s despite most being listed as dmf.

No, my point was that I have had two clutches (and no gearboxes) the gearbox is just fine that piece of casting that gets chewed has little function, the bearing is in the backside of the gearbox. I just consider it a bit of light-weighting! No machining - why would you? There is so discussion on here re dmf or not but I think OEM they should be, its probably that some get "deleted" as they say.

The first clutch failed a little while after I brought the car (2nd owner) so I had no idea how it had been treated. The second failed 45kmiles later (in y ownership) but after having taught both children to drive and mostly doing a stop start commute driven by my wife who is perhaps less mechanically sympathetic - I'm happy with the life span in those circumstances.

 

[Multipla156]

For what it's worth, we had similar in our T/A 4x4 and the DM flywheel failed before 45k miles. Terrible. Chewed gearbox casing as normally happens, but not repaired and it has been fine. But local garage sorted a new clutch and DMF and it was something like £700 I recall albeit a few years ago. To say it's not economically viable is I feel utterly ridiculous. These cars are fairly good at holding value and it would be a terrible waste to throw an otherwise good car away (assuming the body structure etc is good and not been exposed to too much salt as in Scotland!..) What Car valuation will be a good guide to the car's value anyway. I feel that a lot of garages are sadly fairly ignorant and give poor advice. Lucy to have places like Small Car Services near us not too far from Winchester.

 

[Telecomsuk]

For what it's worth, we had similar in our T/A 4x4 and the DM flywheel failed before 45k miles. Terrible. Chewed gearbox casing as normally happens, but not repaired and it has been fine. But local garage sorted a new clutch and DMF and it was something like £700 I recall albeit a few years ago. To say it's not economically viable is I feel utterly ridiculous. These cars are fairly good at holding value and it would be a terrible waste to throw an otherwise good car away (assuming the body structure etc is good and not been exposed to too much salt as in Scotland!..) What Car valuation will be a good guide to the car's value anyway. I feel that a lot of garages are sadly fairly ignorant and give poor advice. Lucy to have places like Small Car Services near us not too far from Winchester.

Hi thanks for reply, local garage is run by friends mother, they don’t do clutches directly because the labour cost (£78 an hour) ties up a ramp and a mechanic for 10 hrs ish.
Costs were £780 + vat, plus parts if it is indeed the clutch/dmf. Circa £2k.
On a side notee my Peugeot decide to kill and injector on the A34 near Sutton Scotney, RAC took us to Car Craft Engineering at Fair Oak near Eastleigh. I highly recommend this place, After the RAC dropped us and Peugeot they drove us to a local pub so we could get food and came and fetched us when we were done.
Car had a new injector and we were on our way in a few hours.
Panda is on the drive I will do it my self, I’m just gathering stuff and hoping for a bit warmer weather.

 

[Multipla156]

Hi thanks for reply, local garage is run by friends mother, they don’t do clutches directly because the labour cost (£78 an hour) ties up a ramp and a mechanic for 10 hrs ish.
Costs were £780 + vat, plus parts if it is indeed the clutch/dmf. Circa £2k.
On a side notee my Peugeot decide to kill and injector on the A34 near Sutton Scotney, RAC took us to Car Craft Engineering at Fair Oak near Eastleigh. I highly recommend this place, After the RAC dropped us and Peugeot they drove us to a local pub so we could get food and came and fetched us when we were done.
Car had a new injector and we were on our way in a few hours.
Panda is on the drive I will do it my self, I’m just gathering stuff and hoping for a bit warmer weather.

Wow £2k is ridiculous for a panda DMF and clutch - it should be way cheaper than that tbh. Just had an S Max DMF and clutch done at our local garage and that was £1k ish.. plus VAT

 

[jrkitching]

Last time I looked, a clutch kit & DMF from shop4parts is around £650 incl VAT; donated members get a 10% discount on those prices.

If the master & slave cylinders are replaced at the same time (not a bad idea to protect the new parts you've just had fitted), it's not hard to see how a garage bill could easily be £2k.

I don't care to think what a franchised dealer might charge.

 

[Skomervole]

Looks like you are very close to Small Car Sevices in Lower Upham. I'd be speaking with them - see Directory/Latest Reviews