Technical Help! No vacuum to the turbo actuator

[millymoon]

Hiya, thank you for your help along the way

It really is quite shocking the damage that could have been done had we managed to actually drive the car and how bad some 'mechanics' are - plus charging astronomical rates for the privilege!

I'm now having trouble with the turbo not kicking in. The EGR has been blanked off again but this has not improved the situation and I was concerned that the oil found in the intercooler may have affected this during our efforts to find a solution to our problem. I really hope this is not the case

One day this car will work perfectly... at least I can now drive it

Any thoughts re: getting the turbo to do it's job would be very gratefully appreciated

 

[jwmultipla]

Hi Millymoon

sorry for not replying! what do you mean the turbo is not kicking in? can you elaborate on what is now happening. I assume the car now does not die at 3000rpm as you said that the intercooler is now clear. can you give us some symptoms of what the car does and at what engine speed etc, also does it show any errors? silly question but what does your new mechanic (the one that fixed it) think or have you not been back to him

justin

 

[Petejtd]

I've had the same problem with my 1.9 stilo. I cleaned all sensors, did the mr muscle thing on the turbo - the vanes move freely now... Still no movement from the actuator. Checked the vacuum pipe, NO VACUUM! The vacuum, I found comes from a vacuum pump on the end of the camshaft. It looks like a water pump, except the pipe from it goes to the brake servo. I followed it to a little branch off, leading to a black box on the back of the engine. This is a vacuum regulator, I think, and the pipe from this leads straight to the turbo actuator. I disconnected the small pipe, where it joined the brake vacuum pipe and there was a strong vacuum - diagnosis - the black box was faulty. I'm not sure what its function is, but I've simply bypassed it and now have a working turbo, with no fault codes, fuel consumption ok...

 

[BikeDoc]

No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Thanks for dragging this thread back up Pete

Interesting reading, especially as I think mine might have a Turbo problem developing . . .

 

[EddieEnglish]

Hi, this is the newest thread I could find (as in the newest posts) to do with the P0236 fault non a 51 plate 1.9 JDT

I have read and followed as much advice as I could from this site and last year replacing the Solenoid valve (with a second hand one) fixed my engine management and turbo problems, this has worked for over a year. However, I now have the same fault code again. I believe after a touch to much oil was put in the engine. The extra oil has been removed.


I have now replace the Solenoid with a brand new one, no difference. I have checked for the vacuum from the black pipe that connects to the Solenoid valve and it is there, I have checked the Orange Silicone pipe and it is whole, I have tried sucking the pipe and the turbo actuator does not move, I have checked to see if it moves when the ignition is turned on and when the car starts and it doesn’t. I have put a screwdriver on the actuator rod and it moves up and down with a little pressure but not much (just a push against the spring return). It appears to me that the Turbo Actuator is at fault. I contacted a Fiat dealer (a good one) and he said that fiat don’t sell parts for the turbo’s so you have to replace the whole unit on exchange for £920 (I cannot afford that and I would not pay it, this car has cost me a fortune in the 1 ½ years I’ve had it), oh, the bottom turbo pipe has also been replaced as I had one I bought a while ago.


The engine management light (and limp mode) started coming on when in 5th and touching 3000rpm, doesn’t appear to come on in any of gear. Will clear after a few days but will come on again at the same rpm in 5th. After changing the solenoid valve and pumping the actuator rod, adding WD40 to it, and disconnecting, syringing a vacuum on the orange pipe the light does come on but will then go off fairly quickly after. I still don’t think I have turbo but the changes appear to have helped without solving the issue.

Any ideas? I’m getting a bit despondent with it all and although I now think the Turbo Actuator is at fault I can’t afford a whole turbo to replace this part

 

[BikeDoc]

No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Hi Eddie, welcome to the forum!

Don't have much knowledge on the Multi's Turbo (yet), this is only my second car that's had one.
The first, a '92 Toyota Lucida, had a 'basic' set-up with a boost-activated wastegate.
I stripped, cleaned and rebuilt that one when I was doing the head-gasket.

I suspect I'll be doing the same with the unit on my '02-115-JTD fairly soon, as I have the same problems/symptoms you describe.

I wouldn't think you could move anything by sucking on the pipe(s), you just can't generate enough vacuum, nor do I think it'll move at low revs, I think that's why we don't get the problems until the engine's 'working hard', mine 'triggers' when trying to accelerate past 70 uphill on the Motorway, just shy of 3000rpm.

If the turbo wasn't working at all (i.e. seized solid), I don't think the car would be driveable, or it'd be very slow.

I think what's maybe happening with mine is that the turbo is stuck (or starting to stick) in one position (it has moving vanes, designed to give good boost over a broader rev range than a 'normal' turbo), it does feel a bit 'gutless' low-down for a turbo-diesel.

I'll hopefully have time to do it in a week or so (off to Scotland tomorrow [1st], back next Sat), so if you can wait 'til then I'll maybe be able to help with ideas/info/pictures etc.

If the actuator is indeed kaput, I would think you'd find one in a breaker's, as it must be an item that's shared by other makes/models.

If you want to look into it, try and find a number on the turbo casing itself, a quick google should find out what other Engines/cars it's fitted to.

 

[BikeDoc]

. . . a black box on the back of the engine . . . the black box was faulty. I'm not sure what its function is . . .

Could be one of two things I reckon Pete, either a damper chamber to smooth out pulses in the vacuum, or maybe a shut-off valve to preserve the vacuum in the Brake Servo side of the system, in case of a leak on the Turbo side.

 

[EddieEnglish]

Re: No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Hi BikeDoc,

It was the Solinoid last year and swapping that part fixed it that time, it does appear we have the same issue, just shy of 3000rpm is when mine kicks in and I 'tested' it in 4th and it did the same thing (I just don't normally hammer the revs). My latest suspicion is that the oil maybe making the vanes stiffer than they should be and preventing the vacuum (that isnt very strong) from moving them. I'm going to remove the bottom Turbo pipe next and clean any oil I can get to, and continue to work the activated rod while lubricating it. My theory is that if the oil is causing issues within the turbo, short of striping it down and cleaning it (I dont have a clue how hard it is to a) remove it b) clean it c) refit it, and I don't have the money to pay someone I will try to see if this will make the situation better.

I have found that after pushing the actuator and lubricating it the error will appear to clear for a while and the car feels like its getting a boost until eventually the error and limp mode kick in. Just lucky I suppose that I can keep driving it to work and limp mode hasn't caused me many issues. Sucking the pipe etc are all suggestions from the forum and I will try anything lol

 

[BikeDoc]

Re: No vacuum to the turbo actuator

. . . lucky I suppose that I can keep driving it to work and limp mode hasn't caused me many issues . . .

Me too.
It rarely happens when I'm driving, as I tend to keep below 3000rpm most of the time, just can't afford the fuel

My wife gets it all the time on her way to work, long hill on the M40 up to High Wycombe.

It should be fairly straightforward to remove, strip and refit.
Make sure you've got any gaskets required before you start, and take lots of pictures if you decide to tackle it

I don't mind being the 'guinea-pig' though, if you prefer to wait...

 

[EddieEnglish]

My light went off again this morning and hasn't come back on yet, I'm sure it will of course but I will drive carefully and keep working the actuator rod.

I'd be interested in a good photo-diary of then turbo removal/cleaning/fitting procedure if you really fancy it

 

[widemouthfrog]

Me too! Just been looking for gasket sets for the Garrett GT1749V turbo (fitted to the JTD 115) on ebay. Around £30 including the journal bearing. I'm not sure how easy it is to strip and rebuild a turbo without specialist tools though(?)

There are also some rebuild kits for the same turbo, but unfortunately not specific to the Multi. They cost £115 and include all seals, bearings, journals/bearings and both impellers and shaft. If it is a feasible DIY job, that's quite a saving over the £320-odd currently charged for an exchange recon. Aren't they supposed to be checked for balance after a rebuild though?

 

[BikeDoc]

No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Won't know if any specialist tools are required until I whip it off.
The one on my Toyota was straightforward enough, just a 'V' clamp and a large Circlip holding the housings together, and one nut on the end of the main shaft to remove . . .

The wastegate actuator failed later on, so I made another one . . .

Somehow I don't think the Multi will be quite so easy to sort out

I also fitted a Boost Controller and boost guage, which I saved when I finally scrapped the car (after the cam belt went), so those'll be going on the Multi too

 

[widemouthfrog]

Re: No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Very nice job BD. Did you get it all blasted for the 'after' pic?

In hunting around for rebuild info on the GT1749V, I found this page. The comments about balancing make interesting and informative reading. A very balanced (groan) opinion:

http://www.turborebuild.co.uk/p/option_page/5/

If you fit the boost controller, how will you stop it flagging boost error messages?

 

[EddieEnglish]

Very nice job BikeDoc, wish I had the time for that, looks like a great rebuild.

My light is back on, surprise surprise

 

[EddieEnglish]

I don't suppose anybody knows where I can buy a new actuator for my 51 plate 115 Multi?

I keep searching the net but having issues as the part appears to be listed but when you look at the cars it should fit the Multi isnt

I suppose if I dont sort this before you strip your turbo BikeDoc the part number would be useful

Fiat - Find my Turbo page lists GT17V 55191596 712766-0002 as the turbo but I'm having issues breaking that down to the actuator part

 

[widemouthfrog]

Is this any good?:

http://www.turborebuild.co.uk/?p=product&key=1107065045

Not the cheapest and the application list is non-existent. Might be worth giving them a call. There are others similar (new) on ebay including ones form the above company, I think. I did see a used one on ebay (from a Doblo I think) but can't find it now.

Btw, are you sure yours is a 115 if it's on a 51 plate?

 

[EddieEnglish]

115 on a 51 plate is what it claims but I must admit it also doesnt have a sunroof but does have aircon so I'm a bit confused about the ELX as well

however

the 2001 110 has the same turbo apparently so I should be good

all a bit odd. Ill double check the documents again.

 

[widemouthfrog]

You could try putting your VIN number in the search box on eper. I think that returns the model code for your vehicle amongst other things (interior trim, paint code etc).

No sunroof? Mmmmm. Does it have aircon or climate control? Is there an 'Auto' setting on the fan speed switch? If so, then it's got climate. If not, and it's got no sunroofs either, then I reckon it could be an SX.

 

[BikeDoc]

No vacuum to the turbo actuator

Very nice job BD. Did you get it all blasted for the 'after' pic?

Used a small blasting set-up we had at work, had a fine honing powder in it, perfect for cleaning up metal parts for painting/coating.
It's gone now . . . but I've since made my own little cabinet and blasting-pot, works a treat .
The grey finish is a spray-on dry film lubricant, I did the turbine and impeller rotors with it as well.

Thanks for that link, very interesting reading.

The boost controller simply taps into the wastegate line, and gives you the ability to 'tweak' the boost pressure ever so slightly by bleeding off a little of the pressure that activates the wastegate.
The more pressure you bleed off, the later the wastegate opens, so the more boost you get.

On my Toyota, the max boost was supposed to be around 10psi, with the over-boost warning light triggered at 11.5 (I think, from memory).
When I fitted the boost controller and guage, I found it was topping out at only around 7 psi, so I just adjusted it until it topped out at 10.



Can't wait to get mine apart now and see what's up with it.

 

[EddieEnglish]

Crickey widemouthfrog, right, it does have auto on the fan speed so maybe climate control then

maybe it's a 51plate 110 then lol on the plus side thats listed as having the same turbo as the 115 52plate onwards so I'm still looking for the same Actuator.

Ill try the Vin number check tonight and see what I get, on the plus side it means the BHP is only 5 more than my bike

Light came on this morning heading to work and then went of after around 20 seconds! It was staying on for days before.

If I had the money the car would be gone, it's cost £2500 in 1 1/2 years of repairs, partners family friend who worked for fiat and had his own garage sold it to us (my partner had her car and her parents car from him with no issues for years), ripped us off and moved to cyprus, then just repair after repair most months Would be ideal for the camping with the kids we wanted but it's just swallowed all my money.