Panda 2012+ Hello

[Twotone2]

Shysters!

Aye you’re not wrong, I actually was really surprised when we got to the dealership I was expecting some really dodgy back street garage with 1970s mechanics cutting about in oily overalls but it turned out to be a really high end Nissan and Fiat dealership with some amazing cars for sale.

I previously phoned their Liverpool branch to enquire about a panda garmen that they had for sale it was a pre-reg and about £15,000 I think anyway I had a two minute conversation with one of their salesmen and he basically told me to eff off when I asked if they’d deliver the car to Glasgow and was there any movement on the price, he basically said it was the cheapest car of that type in the UK (at that time) and if I wanted it I’d need to come to Liverpool and buy the effin thing

Certainly was an ‘interesting’ buying experience I’ll give them that. Btw they didn’t even look at the trade in when I dropped it off they just handed me the keys to the Panda and asked me to sign a form saying that I’d received the car and delivered the trade in they did give me a cup of coffee though and they were pleasant enough. I’d probably buy another car from them as basically it’s really all down to price at the end of the day.

 

[nimbus]

I bought my short-lived grey Panda 4x4 (the one written off after just 8 weeks) from Arnold Clark in Aberdeen (might have been Inverness?). They delivered that to a depot in Milton Keynes for just £85 and I took my previous one there as trade in. Can’t believe over £800?!

By the way, out of curiosity I looked up the written-off 17 plate 4x4 (just 3500-ish miles old) and was slightly surprised to see it had been put back on the road and reached 35,000 miles (but with some fails on the way past). I k ow you can buy back the salvage but It was pretty well bashed at the back and I wouldn’t have wanted to drive it too far.

I nearly brought an Octavia vRS from Arnold Clark a few years ago. The car I was interested in was way up in Elgin and they seemed pretty decent about transferring it to Milton Keynes, and if I wasn't happy with it for any reason. As the deal wasn't good enough I didn't go forward with it, but did buy a vRS.

Unfortunately that car was written off. I was rear ended by a Range Rover that was doing 65 in a 30 zone. Thankfully the whole incident was captured on CCTV. It completely destroyed the rear of the car and it was instantly written off. But thankfully it kept us safe. I was shocked to see 6 months later a new member joined the Briskoda forum and posting pictures of my fully repaired vRS. I'm really not sure I'd trust it after taking that kind of impact.

The part of the accident that haunted me the most was the day of the accident I should've been driving my Mk1 MX-5. Every other day I'd done that journey I'd always taken the MX-5. That day was the only time in 2 years I'd used the vRS. I don't think I would've been here today if the MX-5 had been hit by the Range Rover. As a result of the accident we decided to sell the MX-5. While we've coped for nearly 2 years with one car, we're now at the point where we really need a 2nd which has led me up to this point now.

Last weekend my wife saw a Suzuki Swift she quite liked the look of. It was at a local Marshall group dealer. So we arranged to go over and take a look. When we got there we found it had been sold, which was a little frustrating. However, they let us sit in the car and get a general feel for the size of it, space in the back, boot size, etc. They then said they were getting another one in later in the week. So I just said "OK, fine, let me know when it's in and we'll come over an take a look and take a test drive". At that point the salesman went to 'talk to his manager'. He then said his manager would now only get the car in we agreed to buy it there and then. At this point I said No and waked out. I had a follow up e-mail on Thursday from the salesman saying his manager had 'a change of heart' and had decided to get the car in anyway. I really don't know why so many car salesman still behave in this stereotypical way.

 

[Twotone2]

The ‘manager’ we dealt with at both Arnold Clark and the dealership we ended up buying from could have been the same person, it was like trying to herd cats with both of them, Jack at Stonehaven was certainly an interesting character, he kept changing the deal until I told him to cancel the order.

The guy at Arnold Clark paisley was just as bad to be honest although Arnold Clark were much better to deal with overall. I’ve bought a lot of cars from them over the last 23 or so years and never really had a bad experience except once at their Ford service department which was just a rip off they tried to charge me something like £150 for a wheel locking key at the first service which we should have had when we bought the car from them eventually they relented and refunded that amount and gave me the wheel key when I complained.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Regarding traveling elsewhere to buy cars. Earlier in the year I got involved in helping my sister in law to buy a second wee runabout for doing local shopping trips and running about in. She lives in the country with lots of hills around and has a Land Rover - which is very necessary in the winter - but it's not so great for parking in multi storey car parks and the like. She has mobility problems so needs an automatic which is easy to get in and out of. Oh, and it also had to be relatively cheap! Bit of a challenge then.

I'd have recommended a Panda without the slightest hesitation except for the need for it to be automatic and I just don't have enough confidence in the automatic option available in the Panda. My choice was also limited by the fact we were looking for an older car due to the price constraints and I didn't want a "direct shift, automated manual or DSG type box. Anyway, after a great deal of research I surprised myself by recommending a car I'd never have considered before, not in a million years. So what was it? The Vauxhall Agila/Suzuki Splash! Small and maneuverable with excellent ease of entry and exit. Avery useful load capacity for her shopping trips and plenty of room inside for her to take a friend or two out for lunch in it. And that gearbox? It's a conventional "slush" box - torque converter/epicyclic - Hurrah. By the way, since buying it we've discouvered that it truly is a rebadged Suzuki with just a few styling differences. She's been running around in it for a good 6 months now and is absolutely delighted with it. Phew. She's now using the Landy so seldom I'm concerned she's going to have problems with stuff like it's battery and brakes etc due to it lying unused in her garage!

Now to the point of this post. With me not being able to easily view any of the cars she was looking at I was involved in several telephone conversations with a couple of the dealers. Being as how we were looking at vehicles which were not exactly in their first flush of youth she were viewing cars at smaller dealers, often "family owned" concerns, and what a pleasant experience this was. Looking at older vehicles, I was very concerned about corrosion and, when we'd narrowed the field down to just a couple of cars, both of them put the vehicles up on their lifts and emailed me pictures of the underside. When the final choice was made (colour being the deciding factor!) I spoke at some length with the salesman when she was actually there doing the paperwork and leaving a deposit. We were talking about how difficult this had all been because I was up here in Scotland so far away and how impressed I'd been with the lack of rust I'd seen in the photos. He told me that he has a small regular group of repeat customers from my "neck of the woods" who buy their cars from him because that way they can buy avoid all the severe rust problems you see on many used cars up here due to the massive amounts of salt applied to our roads in the winter.

I've often noticed the relatively good condition of older cars I've seen down in the West Country when we are down there visiting Mrs J's sister and, indeed, the number of older cars on the road - which is much less evident up here. I won't be replacing the Ibiza with a "new" car when the time comes and will be looking for a replacement maybe a couple of years into it's life. Maybe I'll be taking a serious look at something maybe even a bit older when we're down there this year?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I nearly brought an Octavia vRS from Arnold Clark a few years ago. The car I was interested in was way up in Elgin and they seemed pretty decent about transferring it to Milton Keynes, and if I wasn't happy with it for any reason. As the deal wasn't good enough I didn't go forward with it, but did buy a vRS.

Last weekend my wife saw a Suzuki Swift she quite liked the look of. It was at a local Marshall group dealer. So we arranged to go over and take a look. When we got there we found it had been sold, which was a little frustrating. However, they let us sit in the car and get a general feel for the size of it, space in the back, boot size, etc. They then said they were getting another one in later in the week. So I just said "OK, fine, let me know when it's in and we'll come over an take a look and take a test drive". At that point the salesman went to 'talk to his manager'. He then said his manager would now only get the car in we agreed to buy it there and then. At this point I said No and waked out. I had a follow up e-mail on Thursday from the salesman saying his manager had 'a change of heart' and had decided to get the car in anyway. I really don't know why so many car salesman still behave in this stereotypical way.

I've experienced that "conditional" transfer. I was told that I'd be expected to accept the car and pay the transfer charge if the car was viewed by me "as described". I walked away. If they want me to buy they can jolly well allow me to view the vehicle without any strings attached.

I don't think you'd be disappointed with a Swift. My daughter owned one, bought new, for many years and it ran like a wee Swiss watch until, after many years, it just seemed to give up the ghost with multiple cooling system failures and under body rust. It just wore out due to old age.

The ‘manager’ we dealt with at both Arnold Clark and the dealership we ended up buying from could have been the same person, it was like trying to herd cats with both of them, Jack at Stonehaven was certainly an interesting character, he kept changing the deal until I told him to cancel the order.

The guy at Arnold Clark paisley was just as bad to be honest although Arnold Clark were much better to deal with overall. I’ve bought a lot of cars from them over the last 23 or so years and never really had a bad experience except once at their Ford service department which was just a rip off they tried to charge me something like £150 for a wheel locking key at the first service which we should have had when we bought the car from them eventually they relented and refunded that amount and gave me the wheel key when I complained.

I find all these big dealers are "as slippery as eels" We've bought several vehicles, My old Cordoba, older boy's Kia and his Punto, and younger boy's Audi to name some, and, with the exception of the Cordoba, did we actually end up paying what we initially thought we'd be "in the hole for" There's always something like "administrative" fees or other stuff which creeps into the deal. They're all "at it". I looked for some time to find a nice low mileage Punto for my older boy and eventually found one at Evans Halshaw. The car was in much better condition than any others I'd seen and reasonably priced. I hadn't bought anything from one of these big dealers for quite some years and thought the price was agreed - indeed it was, the price of the car that is, silly me didn't realize that didn't include the, not insubstantial, administative fee! On the other hand when I bought the Cordoba from Arnold Clark in Glasgow I had an excellent experience. The salesman didn't try to hide any of the costs and I handed over exactly what I thought I would. As a result I was well pleased with my purchase and left feeling good about the branch. I picked the car up and drove it home along the M8 to Edinburgh only to find two of the hub caps were missing when I got home. Immediately rang them up and they arranged for two new ones to be supplied by their Edinburgh branch FOC - as you would hope, but maybe not expect?

The Kia was an interesting experience. We became aware of the "Kia approved" scheme - it seems that they take a small number of "specially selected" used vehicles, must have low mileage and be under 18 months old I think? and overhaul them at their facility whereupon they sell them with their full 7 year original warranty in place. https://www.kia.com/uk/used-cars/about-approved-used-cars/ My older boy is not a "car person" and just needs something which is reliable and "unexciting" for everyday transport for him and his family. This seemed to fit the bill. Not having any interest in vehicles in general, he spotted a base version Rio - steel wheels but a reasonable number of "toys" as standard - for sale at a branch way up in the highlands. It had exceptionally low mileage on it which we were told was almost certainly because it would have been a showroom car? Who knows? anyway he agreed to buy it. (being the base version it was the cheapest you could buy and then, being "used" he saved a bunch of additional cash too - he got a great deal on a car which was pretty much in new condition) The salesman himself drove the car down here to Edinburgh to their local branch where the car was valeted and checked over. We actually arrived at the branch before they'd finished preparing the car from it's journey and were greeted by the salesman and shown to their hospitality area. It immediately became obvious that the manager was not happy with this salesman, from another branch of course, being there and using his facilities to "entertain" us. Someone even came over and removed the day's papers from the wee table in front of us! How petty. The two of them could be seen "having words" at the back of the showroom too. Anyway, after some time the car arrived in front of the showroom, we test drove it - it drove very well and looked indistinguishable from a new one - so he signed up and took the car. After a couple of weeks and then again a few months, the salesman rang him to ask if all was well with the car and if there was anything else he could help him with. He was very helpful and friendly and we'd buy from him again without hesitation. The car's now in it's last year of warrant cover and local branch has been in contact asking him if he'd like to come in and see the newer models as his will soon be out of warranty. After seeing how they behaved towards one of their own staff there's no way we'd buy from them again - we'd certainly ring that branch up north though if he was considering another Kia - think there's a lot of life left in this one yet though.

 

[rmjbn1]

So if there is any links to buying advice, or if people can give me some advice on what to look for and ask an owner or trader I’d really appreciate it. Also things to avoid!

Agree with comments above - I like the idea of the TwinAir, but the 1.2 FIRE is a tried and tested design with millions made and no known vices.

The 1.2 may not provide the peak power of the TA, but develops maximum torque from just 2500rpm, and the Panda is such a light car I think the engine suits it perfectly.

The tappets can be a little rattly from cold, but this should clear pretty quickly, there should be no lumpy idle. As always, make sure there's no mayo in the oil filler plug, no exhaust smoke, and all fluids are up to level.

The main rust spot is the rear axle spring pans. They're usually rusty - if it's just surface rust then they're quite easy to treat, but deep corrosion might mean a new axle - still not a massive job, new axles are £130-ish.

Bodies are galvanised, so rust shouldn't be too much of a concern, but can develop at the rear sills.

Thermostats can leak as they age - temp gauge should climb to half within a few minutes and stay there. If it sits lower, it needs a new stat.

Gearboxes are generally strong, but cables can deteriorate - check gear selection is smooth.

The input shaft bearing can be a weak point. If it's worn it can let oil into the bell-housing. There's an inspection window here:

Stick a finger in (with the engine off!) - dusty black soot, all well, if it's oily then the bearing has failed. It's not a major issue, it'll still run fine and unlikely to reach the clutch, but could be used to drive the price down

Am I correct in thinking both of the rear seats have ISOFIX for car seats, as that would definitely be a requirement.

No idea, sorry, @The Panda Nut might know?

 

[nimbus]

Agree with comments above - I like the idea of the TwinAir, but the 1.2 FIRE is a tried and tested design with millions made and no known vices.

The 1.2 may not provide the peak power of the TA, but develops maximum torque from just 2500rpm, and the Panda is such a light car I think the engine suits it perfectly.

The tappets can be a little rattly from cold, but this should clear pretty quickly, there should be no lumpy idle. As always, make sure there's no mayo in the oil filler plug, no exhaust smoke, and all fluids are up to level.

@rmjbn1 - Many thanks for this, it's really helpful, and just what I was looking for...

I was browsing the eBay classified ads this afternoon and came across this: Link to eBay

The mileage is higher than I'd really like, but the advert shows a lot of service history. Then I looked at the MOT History which paints a different picture of the car. I've attached the MOT history, are the faults showing up over the years common ones? Or is this just a car not well looked after...?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

@rmjbn1 - Many thanks for this, it's really helpful, and just what I was looking for...

I was browsing the eBay classified ads this afternoon and came across this: Link to eBay

The mileage is higher than I'd really like, but the advert shows a lot of service history. Then I looked at the MOT History which paints a different picture of the car. I've attached the MOT history, are the faults showing up over the years common ones? Or is this just a car not well looked after...?

I’ve always been of the view that any well-looked-after car should never fail an MOT, and that a car should never be presented for an MOT test with ‘obvious’ things like bulbs or wipers not working. Those sorts of things should be looked at at least weekly - not annually!
On that basis this car has clearly not been looked after and I would suggest leaving it well alone.

 

[jrkitching]

Has anyone else noticed the huge red flag here?

An MOT advisory for a rusty sump, followed the next year by another advisory for a leaking sump, followed by an advisory for no visible oil on the dipstick!

So someone ran this for at least a short while with no meaningful amount of oil in the engine.

That alone is screaming to me that you should walk away from this car.

However, it does illustrate how strong these engines are; try this on a TA (and quite a few other powerplants) and it'd be scrap now.

Rusty sumps are common on this engine, and most folks here do something to give the sump a little additional protection - even just wiping over it with a rag soaked in oil after each oil change is enough - but to completely ignore at least two warnings and run it for another two years until there's no oil left in the engine doesn't inspire confidence in the previous owner's attitude to maintenance.

I’ve always been of the view that any well-looked-after car should never fail an MOT

and I've always been of the view that one should never present a car for an MOT with no visible oil in the sump. Getting an advisory for this would probably put off most knowledgeable future purchasers for the rest of the car's life.

A more serious thought is that one should never present a car for an MOT without first fixing all the advisories it got on its last one.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just catching up on this thread and I agree with what's being said above.

First off the 1.2 is, in my opinion, the "sensible" choice. Maybe not "exciting" but by far the best for everyday economical and reliable transport.

I was taking a look at the failures and advisories and am a bit shocked to see the repeated entries regarding the sump corrosion and low oil level but even more shocked to see the rusty rear brake pipes appearing more than once. The rest of it, brake discs, suspension wear - lower arm rear bushes etc - are not unexpected at this sort of age and mileage and are relatively cheap to repair so it's disappointing to see them being ignored. Certainly seems to shout out to me that whoever owned it was neglecting it something awful.

Considering the total mileage, work needing done and age of the vehicle I'd be giving this one no further thought.

PS. JRK's highlighting of the "elephant factor" is highly relevant too!

 

[chr1s]

I'm intrigued by one of the 28/01/2020 failures:
Offside front stop lamp(s) all not working (4.3.1 (a) (iii)) - Dangerous
I've never had working stop lamps at the front !

 

[The Panda Nut]

Agree with comments above - I like the idea of the TwinAir, but the 1.2 FIRE is a tried and tested design with millions made and no known vices.

The 1.2 may not provide the peak power of the TA, but develops maximum torque from just 2500rpm, and the Panda is such a light car I think the engine suits it perfectly.

The tappets can be a little rattly from cold, but this should clear pretty quickly, there should be no lumpy idle. As always, make sure there's no mayo in the oil filler plug, no exhaust smoke, and all fluids are up to level.

The main rust spot is the rear axle spring pans. They're usually rusty - if it's just surface rust then they're quite easy to treat, but deep corrosion might mean a new axle - still not a massive job, new axles are £130-ish.

Bodies are galvanised, so rust shouldn't be too much of a concern, but can develop at the rear sills.

Thermostats can leak as they age - temp gauge should climb to half within a few minutes and stay there. If it sits lower, it needs a new stat.

Gearboxes are generally strong, but cables can deteriorate - check gear selection is smooth.

The input shaft bearing can be a weak point. If it's worn it can let oil into the bell-housing. There's an inspection window here:
View attachment 432991
Stick a finger in (with the engine off!) - dusty black soot, all well, if it's oily then the bearing has failed. It's not a major issue, it'll still run fine and unlikely to reach the clutch, but could be used to drive the price down

No idea, sorry, @The Panda Nut might know?

Well no actually. But I will inspect the fleet tomorrow. I understand its a mandatory fitment post 2014. I have not noticed it on any of ours. 2011/14/19.

Euro Ncap says yes on the 2018 car test. Car handbook says yes for two outer rear seats See P112 in relevant download in the Fiat cars/panda 2012+ tabs Not all car seats will fit but there is a list of those that do

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Well no actually. But I will inspect the fleet tomorrow. I understand its a mandatory fitment post 2014. I have not noticed it on any of ours. 2011/14/19.

Euro Ncap says yes on the 2018 car test. Car handbook says yes for two outer rear seats See P112 in relevant download in the Fiat cars/panda 2012+ tabs Not all car seats will fit but there is a list of those that do

So far as I know, all post 2012 Pandas have had IsoFix fixings on the rear seats (regardless of whether one-piece or spilt folding). The tell-tale is the ‘top tether’ mounts clearly visible in the boot of the car, on the back of the seat upright (I’m pointing at one in the first photo) and small labels on the seat itself. The lower mounts at the junction of the seat squab and backrest are well hidden by the seat upholstery (last photo).

 

[nimbus]

On that basis this car has clearly not been looked after and I would suggest leaving it well alone.

This is one I would definitely avoid. I had seen a few where there had been MOT failures/advisories relating to deterioration of the brake hoses. I do think being able to view MOT history on-line is an invaluable tool these days. Without the history, the advert reads very well, and all of the paperwork being displayed in the photos suggests a car that has been well maintained all of its life. When you read the MOT history you see the full picture.

I have seen a couple of nice 2014/2015 1.2 Lounge models on Auto Trader being sold by dealers, but all of them are quite highly priced, all between £6.5k-£7k. Auto Trader flags up the cars as being "Higher Priced". Tempted to take a look at a couple.

 

[nimbus]

I got an email notification on Friday morning of an excellent Panda for sale. Private sale, 1.2 engine, 8,500 miles, full service history, located in Dorset for £6,300. By the time I’d finished work the advert had gone. Two days later I received another Auto Trader notification for the same car. Except now it was being sold by a dealer and the price had increase by £2,000.
Link to Auto Trader

 

[jrkitching]

I got an email notification on Friday morning of an excellent Panda for sale.

By the time I’d finished work the advert had gone.

That's how quick you have to be when you see a decent car in today's market.

Almost £8300 for a 7 yr old Panda just feels wrong. I'd bet serious money there'll be quite a few well corroded parts underneath that shiny exterior.

 

[nimbus]

That's how quick you have to be when you see a decent car in today's market.

Almost £8300 for a 7 yr old Panda just feels wrong. I'd bet serious money there'll be quite a few well corroded parts underneath that shiny exterior.

It looked very tempting, so I can see why a dealer has snapped it up, but while Auto Trader lists it as a “good price”, I think its very high, especially as I know 2 days ago it was being sold for £2000 less!

A TwinAir Lounge has come up for sale near to me. It’s a 2016 with 70,000 miles. 2 owners, but the current owner says it has been serviced every year or 10,000 miles and he has all the invoices to back it up. It’s tempting to look, but my head is telling me I should stick to looking at 1.2s.

 

[jrkitching]

It’s tempting to look

Not to me it isn't. Too many years spent moderating too many threads started by folks with cars exactly like this throwing up expensive, hard to diagnose faults. The TA was a car best bought new and traded away before the warranty expired.

my head is telling me I should stick to looking at 1.2s

and now I'm telling you the same thing. Listen to your head.

Buying any used car is something of a nightmare right now. You need a lot of patience, but persevere, and you'll get there in the end.

Generally, it's better to pay a bit too much for a good one than to buy a bad one cheaply.

 

[Marcus Daly]

Gravity has to return to car prices sooner or later. Before all the daft kung flu hysteria we were constantly being told there was massive oversupply and a bloodbath of manufacturers and dealers was inevitable. Now that supply chains are back to normal we'll see that not much has changed, and when the likes of the £40K Corsa (LOL) get discounted back to reality there'll be a swift impact on used prices.

And that's before the tsunami of cheap no-brand Chinese EVs headed this way.

 

[nimbus]

I found a YouTube channel where a used car dealer in Cheshire documents his experiences. The video I've linked to below shows his experience a few weeks ago at a car auction. It shows him appraising some vehicles and then showing you what they ultimately sell for. Essentially he couldn't believe the high prices some absolute wrecks were selling for. As its traders buying these, they'll end up on forecourts...
Link to Video