Technical Handbrake off.. clunk... move off.

[SB1500]

My Panda, in the morning and when left for hours sitting still shows the same problem each time..

I start the car, nice quick startup that I love hearing from the little dependable Panda.

I engage first gear (with a bit of difficulty sometimes..), release the handbrake and then as it moves I feel a bit of resistance, like the brakes are holding it still and the momentum 'pops' it out of its hold on the wheels and it rolls like normal.

Its like a stiffness or release, its as if the brakes aren't giving it enough clearance or something.

Then the brakes sound a bit scrapey for the first 50m coming from the back.

Sounds like a brake problem right?! Well as I've got that handbrake problem I'm worried its actually that and not the brakes. Plus they're drums at the rear so I have even less of a clue as to maintaining them as I do at the front with the discs.

Could this noise be related to the handbrake or just the back brakes showing early signs of needing replaced?

p.s. despite my rust worries I've decided either way the Panda still needs its servicing, consumable replacements etc and have confidence I'll get good use out of it

 

[Thefox]

Sound like the rear brakes probably just need servicing, a good clean out and adjust up. When was the last time the rear drums were off.?

 

[SB1500]

Not exactly sure as the previous owners include my sister (neglect) and my granny (no concept of it) so unless there's any way for me to inspect or maybe video it for you to see that might tell?

So you say it's a drum problem?

I think the shoes were included in Fiat's £127 price for the handbrake repair. Should I get this done if it will possibly cure the problem I described?

 

[Thefox]

If the clunk is from the rear then I'd defiantly be taking the drums off to inspect, clean and service. No way to inspect without the wheel off and drum off. It's an easy job for a mechanic. If your not a qualified mechanic just leave to the people that are qualified.

 

[portland_bill]

Often when the brake shoes are damp they will stick a bit and pop off as you drive away. This normally occurs after a wet night, or having been stood for a few days. Occurring every time suggests that the shoes may be contaminated with leaked brake fluid, or perhaps the handbrake mechanism inside the drum is sticking.

If you're not sure what you are doing in there, give it to a mechanic. Any competent garage will sort this, no need to pay high prices at the dealer.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

One way of minimising this is to pull the handbrake on gently and progressively as you drive at walking pace. Sometimes the shoes get a glaze that makes them stick to the drums. Doing this will serve to clean the shoes.

If you do this, it needs to be done with care and on an empty road.

Another trick is to apply the handbrake progressively as your car is rolling to a stop (in your driveway preferably). This warms the drums and minimises sticking.

 

[SB1500]

If the clunk is from the rear then I'd defiantly be taking the drums off to inspect, clean and service. No way to inspect without the wheel off and drum off. It's an easy job for a mechanic. If your not a qualified mechanic just leave to the people that are qualified.

I know for a fact mechanics know what they're doing and this could well be easy for them to do, but they know that I can't exactly see that for myself if they try to BS me into replacing parts etc? And then they'll think I'm a right awkward f*cker for refusing to let them put cheap parts in :-/

Often when the brake shoes are damp they will stick a bit and pop off as you drive away. This normally occurs after a wet night, or having been stood for a few days. Occurring every time suggests that the shoes may be contaminated with leaked brake fluid, or perhaps the handbrake mechanism inside the drum is sticking.

If you're not sure what you are doing in there, give it to a mechanic. Any competent garage will sort this, no need to pay high prices at the dealer.

If brake fluid is leaking is this the sign of a major problem? I looked at how drums work online and I can definitely agree it's something I should avoid attempting to even inspect in detail in case I mess it up.

One way of minimising this is to pull the handbrake on gently and progressively as you drive at walking pace. Sometimes the shoes get a glaze that makes them stick to the drums. Doing this will serve to clean the shoes.

If you do this, it needs to be done with care and on an empty road.

Another trick is to apply the handbrake progressively as your car is rolling to a stop (in your driveway preferably). This warms the drums and minimises sticking.

I will try to give this a go today. Would this help eliminate a problem and show that the drums just need cleaned or could it still be on the table that this is a handbrake and/or drum issue which needs a part replaced?


Some people are telling me to just leave the car now until the MOT flags up things I 'need' done.. but surely it's not right to ignore a potential brake problem for safety?!

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Correctly, the handbrake is only used when the car has already stopped, so the only 'safety issue' would arise if the handbrake failed to keep the car stationary. The Panda handbrake is a good one, but I often also put my car in gear if I'm stopped on a hill.

No real worries there.

If you're getting 'graunching' noises from the rear drums, then the time has come to strip them and investigate.

 

[SB1500]

Originally I thought this noise was due to parking in gear, like some kind of loose or faulty part in the engine that clunked when it was released from holding the car, but it's definitely coming from the back.

If I take this to a mechanic now and say it's making a noise and to check them for me what do you reckon they could come back to me with and rough price estimate of 'not too expensive' to 'take out a loan' lol

 

[Sweetsixteen]

After all you've already done to your car, and the learning curve involved, checking over your rear brakes is not a mountain to climb.

I reckon you could easily do this maintenance yourself. You're fast becoming a practical Panda expert!

 

[gazz_bee]

I will try to give this a go today. Would this help eliminate a problem and show that the drums just need cleaned or could it still be on the table that this is a handbrake and/or drum issue which needs a part replaced?

Park the car overnight with the handbrake off but leave the car in gear to prevent it from rolling away. The following day, a lack of rear axle clunk when driving off confirms a binding handbrake.

 

[SB1500]

After all you've already done to your car, and the learning curve involved, checking over your rear brakes is not a mountain to climb.

I reckon you could easily do this maintenance yourself. You're fast becoming a practical Panda expert!

I kind of surrendered after the rust problems seemed way out of my depth! But nevertheless I will speak to my uncle as he might know how to go about it. He said there'd be a wear indicator, as his car has one but I've since found out my Panda doesn't have one to depend on. He did all the brakes on his VW Bora himself but I'd imagine it has all discs and no drums, still, will ask what he knows.

Myself however I'd be scared to mess it up! that's assuming he has no idea to be able to help in person.

I'm planning on removing the rear wheels this weekend to get a look however, learnt online there about the deteriorating rubber components that can allow fluid to leak and rusty springs causing it to jam and possibly stick causing my problem. Not sure if taking the wheels off will uncover this, but it should give an idea of the general shape. I dont think I can go much farther than that to be 'safe'?

Park the car overnight with the handbrake off but leave the car in gear to prevent it from rolling away. The following day, a lack of rear axle clunk when driving off confirms a binding handbrake.

Thanks, I will park it tonight (flat surface where I park now) in gear with the handbrake off and report back tomorrow if this avoids the noise.

So if it does eliminate the clunk, its a handbrake problem
If it does not, it's an outright drum problem?

 

[portland_bill]

You can inspect yourself, without dismantling, apart from removing the drums.
Park it in gear, and chock the front wheels.
Raise one rear wheel, and remove.
Release the handbrake. Otherwise it holds the drum and fights you. You may need to wriggle the lever the handbrake connects to to ensure the shoes are released inside.
Holding the drum on are two pins, with a narrow hex. Not checked the Panda, but earlier models were 12mm. You need a good fitting spanner to avoid rounding them off.
Remove the pins.
The drum should now come off.
If it fights, the holes for the pins are threaded, larger than the pins. Can't remember exactly, but either 8mm or 10mm bolts fit, and when threaded in gently, will pull the drum off. If it still fights, the shoes are holding. Getting past that is difficult to explain, ideally needs experience.
Once the drums are off, you can see the state of the shoes, springs, adjuster and wheel cylinders.
Shoes should be rust free, linings not contaminated, and not cracked.
Springs should be unbroken, and apparently doing what they should.
The adjuster should be free to adjust and the handbrake levers free to move.
The wheel cylinders should be dry. Peel back the dust boot and check inside, that should be dry too.

If you decide to dismantle, take pictures first. The springs will fight, be prepared for some swearing.
If the adjuster needs freeing off and lubricating, do it with a graphite spray, not WD40, as that will not stand the heat. Don't use copper grease on adjusters, it attracts the dust and then makes it worse. A tiny dab of copper grease where the shoes rub against the backplate will help prevent noises.

 

[bluejohn125]

You have exactly the same problem as my Brava.... in winter or damp conditions there is sometimes a twang from the back when moving off and a scraping from the rear for the first bit of braking. I was also sure that it was a handbrake issue since I had completely redone the rear drums and shoes previously, and I checked and lubed all the external cables and joints etc outside the drums connected to the handbrake. No improvement...

Logically it must be internal, and the brake shoes are sticking and then releasing. I think that applying the handbrake just locks the shoes on tighter than during normal braking, and the problem area sticks when combined with some damp.

Careful inspection and cleaning should sort it out... if your drums haven't been off for a while expect to brush (or blow ???) out lots of dodgy dust etc and maybe give a good old quirt with brake cleaner.

You'll probably need a hammer to tap around the drum to free it off, and a screwdriver to jiggle it free by levering carefully against the backplate. Keep the drum very "square" when pulling it off so that it won't bind.

 

[SB1500]

You can inspect yourself, without dismantling, apart from removing the drums.
Park it in gear, and chock the front wheels.
Raise one rear wheel, and remove.
Release the handbrake. Otherwise it holds the drum and fights you. You may need to wriggle the lever the handbrake connects to to ensure the shoes are released inside.
Holding the drum on are two pins, with a narrow hex. Not checked the Panda, but earlier models were 12mm. You need a good fitting spanner to avoid rounding them off.
Remove the pins.
The drum should now come off.
If it fights, the holes for the pins are threaded, larger than the pins. Can't remember exactly, but either 8mm or 10mm bolts fit, and when threaded in gently, will pull the drum off. If it still fights, the shoes are holding. Getting past that is difficult to explain, ideally needs experience.
Once the drums are off, you can see the state of the shoes, springs, adjuster and wheel cylinders.
Shoes should be rust free, linings not contaminated, and not cracked.
Springs should be unbroken, and apparently doing what they should.
The adjuster should be free to adjust and the handbrake levers free to move.
The wheel cylinders should be dry. Peel back the dust boot and check inside, that should be dry too.

If you decide to dismantle, take pictures first. The springs will fight, be prepared for some swearing.
If the adjuster needs freeing off and lubricating, do it with a graphite spray, not WD40, as that will not stand the heat. Don't use copper grease on adjusters, it attracts the dust and then makes it worse. A tiny dab of copper grease where the shoes rub against the backplate will help prevent noises.

Do I need any special tools for this or can I safely (if not a bit fiddly) get these parts inspected and put back to normal easily enough?

You have exactly the same problem as my Brava.... in winter or damp conditions there is sometimes a twang from the back when moving off and a scraping from the rear for the first bit of braking. I was also sure that it was a handbrake issue since I had completely redone the rear drums and shoes previously, and I checked and lubed all the external cables and joints etc outside the drums connected to the handbrake. No improvement...

Logically it must be internal, and the brake shoes are sticking and then releasing. I think that applying the handbrake just locks the shoes on tighter than during normal braking, and the problem area sticks when combined with some damp.

Careful inspection and cleaning should sort it out... if your drums haven't been off for a while expect to brush (or blow ???) out lots of dodgy dust etc and maybe give a good old quirt with brake cleaner.

You'll probably need a hammer to tap around the drum to free it off, and a screwdriver to jiggle it free by levering carefully against the backplate. Keep the drum very "square" when pulling it off so that it won't bind.

Thanks, plan on inspecting it this weekend if possible.

Park the car overnight with the handbrake off but leave the car in gear to prevent it from rolling away. The following day, a lack of rear axle clunk when driving off confirms a binding handbrake.

Tried this, I can confirm that it does not happen when left in gear with the handbrake off! Does this mean its an exclusive handbrake problem? And could it be related to these 'welded adjusters' I have posted about in the past

 

[notsmartcars]

May even be a lining coming off which is not that uncommon