Going Electric.. present small car options.. confusing

[Didge3]

Not at all. A PHEV is far more economical than any REX when driven using Petrol. A PHEV has the ability to directly drive the vehicles wheels where as a REX doesn't, and only has the capability of charging the battery and the car is then driven by the electric motor only. Every time you convert energy you incur losses, as such a PHEV which converts the Petrol straight to kinetic energy of the vehicle, rather than a REX which changes it from Petrol, into a battery, and then into the motor, suffers far higher losses.

From memory the i3 REX for example only does circa 30MPG on petrol! My previous Prius PHEV when not plugged it and only propelled fully by Petrol was capable of an easy 70MPG (real world calcs) at motorway speeds.

You make a very valid point there, I guess my view is skewed by my driving style/needs. Although I'm also eating my words because the Volt/Ampera can be driven directly by the engine cutting out the HV system altogether when the car decides to do so.

Erm...it doesn't need to be plugged it into the mains to charge the battery.

So factually it is self-charging.

I understand the whole process is different, reclaiming energy that is lost into the environment in a normal car to charge the battery..but the point I was making is..it's a stupid tagline.

Yes I agree, I'm not against hybrids or even mild hybrids I just don't agree with the term, the energy in a hybrid comes from the ICE, all of it. Yes it takes kinetic energy when coasting to charge the battery but that kinetic energy was created by burning fossil fuel in the first place. Undoubtedly better than a pure ICE vehicle and much more affordable than a PHEV/BEV so they have their place but when Toyota are specifically making adverts pitting their self-charging hybrids against PHEV/BEV saying 'theres no need to wait around charging our car like you do with these terrible cars' is misleading. I will note I have never seen these adverts shown in the UK but they certainly have been in the US.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Yes I agree, I'm not against hybrids or even mild hybrids I just don't agree with the term, the energy in a hybrid comes from the ICE, all of it. Yes it takes kinetic energy when coasting to charge the battery but that kinetic energy was created by burning fossil fuel in the first place.

I was waiting for this as it's the same response from the HEV haters in the EV groups I'm in

Toyota have never claimed otherwise

Mild hybrids are more of an issue, as IMO there is nothing hybrid about them. The ICE has to be running to move the car, as realistically imo they're nothing more than a beefed up stop/start system.

Either do it properly and make a HEV like Toyota or Honda etc, or don't bother at all.

 

[StevenRB45]

I was waiting for this as it's the same response from the HEV haters in the EV groups I'm in

Toyota have never claimed otherwise

Mild hybrids are more of an issue, as IMO there is nothing hybrid about them. The ICE has to be running to move the car, as realistically imo they're nothing more than a beefed up stop/start system.

Either do it properly and make a HEV like Toyota or Honda etc, or don't bother at all.

I'd imagine it's the use of the phrase "self-charging" that gets people a bit annoyed. When actually you charge it by going to the petrol station...so it isn't self-charging any more than a conventional I.C.E. car is.

Done properly there's a lot of good engineering that brings additional efficiency compared to bog standard I.C.E. but they've managed to **** a lot of people off with the choice of phrase that is at best half a truth.

You can't market a BEV as self-charging...yet it has all the regenerative tech a hybrid would use.

I do agree there is a gulf between "proper" hybrids and the wltp cheating wonders many of the premium manufacturers build.

Although I love this...

So I probably need to pipe down..

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

You can't market a BEV as self-charging...yet it has all the regenerative tech a hybrid would use.

Regen does make it self charging vs none self charging.

The traction battery on a hybrid is self charging as it doesn't need any user intervention above driving it like any other ICE for the system to charge and maintain itself.

The traction battery on a BEV needs the user to plug it in and charge it. If they don't it'll eventually use all its stored energy and stop moving.

People try to over complicate things, strip it back to basics and the self charging punch line is factually correct.

 

[StevenRB45]

The traction battery on a BEV needs the user to plug it in and charge it. If they don't it'll eventually use all its stored energy and stop moving.

Can you remind what happens if a self-charging hybrid runs out of petrol?

The answer to that question may be why the self-charging tagline is nonsense.

Or it applies to every vehicle since the dynamo was invented.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Can you remind what happens if a self-charging hybrid runs out of petrol?

At what point does anyone claim any different, or that they don't even need petrol

In one vehicle the traction battery is self charging, and the other it isn't. Nothing else has ever been claimed

 

[StevenRB45]

At what point does anyone claim any different, or that they don't even need petrol

In one vehicle the traction battery is self charging, and the other it isn't. Nothing else has ever been claimed

So would you be OK for example with a BEV manufacturer fitting a small additional battery that was only charged by regen and then marketing their car as self charging?

Or would you see that as misleading? Technically correct but still obfuscation.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Technically correct but still obfuscation.

No it wouldn't be correct, as the car would still eventually stop if not plugged in and charged with electricity.

Self charging = never has to be plugged in to charge the traction battery.

BEV is not self charging. If you never plug it in it will eventually come to a stop when the traction battery is empty.

 

[StevenRB45]

No it wouldn't be correct, as the car would still eventually stop if not plugged in and charged with electricity.

Self charging = never has to be plugged in to charge the traction battery.

BEV is not self charging. If you never plug it in it will eventually come to a stop when the traction battery is empty.

Yes in the same way if you don't put petrol in a self-charging hybrid there will be no movement generated from the ICE. Therefore the self-charging system cannot charge and will not.

So you could have a separate hybrid system in a BEV and meet Toyotas definition of self-charging hybrid. You wouldn't because it's stupid way of building a BEV.

But if you did you could say your BEV was a self-charging hybrid by this definition..which is clearly nonsense.

 

[varesecrazy]

Although I love this...

So I probably need to pipe down..

A Double garage and a big slab of flat and level concrete.. sounds like heaven

Ideal for Oil Changes..and fitting new brakes

I had no idea it was a PSA..
The link gave that away

As I mentioned a couple of years ago we had a DS diesel hybrid in work at the time.. very tired.. still worth @£10k..

So a pipedream.. but not governed to 8k per year mileage unlike most affordable options.

FCA are still pumping out a lot of good development kit..
But it will be 3 years before they appear on the Used market

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Yes in the same way if you don't put petrol in a self-charging hybrid there will be no movement generated from the ICE.

Correct - now please show me where that has been advise, and that you don't need to put petrol in one. I've yet to see this being claimed anywhere.

As I've previously mentioned, its self charging with no additional user interaction over and above its use like a normal ICE - IE you put petrol in it and drive it.

The user has to do nothing more to charge the traction battery - because it's self charging

Further to your other points, if you have a separate hybrid system in a BEV then you don't have a BEV, its then a PHEV

If it's not powered by just a battery then it's not a BEV is it

 

[StevenRB45]

Correct - now please show me where that has been advise, and that you don't need to put petrol in one. I've yet to see this being claimed anywhere.

As I've previously mentioned, its self charging with no additional user interaction over and above its use like a normal ICE - IE you put petrol in it and drive it.

The user has to do nothing more to charge the traction battery - because it's self charging

Further to your other points, if you have a separate hybrid system in a BEV then you don't have a BEV, its then a PHEV

If it's not powered by just a battery then it's not a BEV is it

You know its a cynical slogan designed to fool idiots..

But I think you enjoy the debate

 

[StevenRB45]

FCA are still pumping out a lot of good development kit..
But it will be 3 years before they appear on the Used market

Chances of anyone buying one of these are teeny tiny compared to the default Audi. Especially at the 55k the cost, but it is a very cool thing to me.

However I very much have a history of liking 4wd Fast estates. Starting with the Galant VR-4 estate..preferable in black in gunmetal wheels.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

You know its a cynical slogan designed to fool idiots..

I couldn’t possibly comment

But I think you enjoy the debate

You know me too well

 

[puntofan01]

The thing that worries me is that hybrids will only be made until 2035. Unless the infrastructure is completely and utterly transformed, there will potentially be a lot of people unable to charge an electric car.

Take meself as an example: as things stand atm, I live on a residential estate built over 30 years ago with no electricity supplies in its carparks, and I have no means of being able to charge an electric car at work either. A conventional, older tech hybrid would be absolutely fine, and could potentially still offer low emissions driving though.

I completely understand the need to move over to EVs, and have no problems with it, just as long as the complete infrastructure is put into place so that people aren't left stranded.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

The thing that worries me is that hybrids will only be made until 2035. Unless the infrastructure is completely and utterly transformed, there will potentially be a lot of people unable to charge an electric car.

Take meself as an example: as things stand atm, I live on a residential estate built over 30 years ago with no electricity supplies in its carparks, and I have no means of being able to charge an electric car at work either. A conventional, older tech hybrid would be absolutely fine, and could potentially still offer low emissions driving though.

I completely understand the need to move over to EVs, and have no problems with it, just as long as the complete infrastructure is put into place so that people aren't left stranded.

14 years is a very long time. The EV infrastructure has moved massively within just the last 2 years, let alone the previous 5. I can’t see 14 years being an issue for the 25-30% who won’t be able to home charge.

Not forgetting they won’t disappear over night, so even if not made new, they’ll still be about for a further decade or two, so that gives 20-30 years.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

14 years is a very long time. The EV infrastructure has moved massively within just the last 2 years, let alone the previous 5. I can’t see 14 years being an issue for the 25-30% who won’t be able to home charge.

Not forgetting they won’t disappear over night, so even if not made new, they’ll still be about for a further decade or two, so that gives 20-30 years.

These are common and basically stupid arguments that people like to go over time and time again, “I can’t charge my car at home” well who actually has a petrol pump at home or in their house/road now?

With charging times decreasing massively and batteries getting bigger it’s not going to matter in 14 years time if someone has a plug socket at the kerb side as once a week they fill charge up just like they fill up with petrol now the only disadvantage if you can’t charge at home is that charging process taking up to 10 whole minutes !!!

As you rightly point out, in the last two years alone things have moved fast, it’s not even that long since they started selling teslas in the uk less than 10 years so the roads will look very different in 14 years time

 

[Didge3]

The thing that worries me is that hybrids will only be made until 2035. Unless the infrastructure is completely and utterly transformed, there will potentially be a lot of people unable to charge an electric car.

Take meself as an example: as things stand atm, I live on a residential estate built over 30 years ago with no electricity supplies in its carparks, and I have no means of being able to charge an electric car at work either. A conventional, older tech hybrid would be absolutely fine, and could potentially still offer low emissions driving though.

I completely understand the need to move over to EVs, and have no problems with it, just as long as the complete infrastructure is put into place so that people aren't left stranded.

I've been an active member of this forum for some 9 years so forgive me for seeming stalker-ish but AFAIK you've had your Punto (which I'm making an assumption you still own) since you joined about 7 years ago, at which point it was 6/7 years old?
Lets say you follow this trend and buy a 6 year old PHEV in 2041, which would be one of the last registered PHEV's as brand new. Being pessimistic let's also say you still have no option to charge at home and by 2041 charging still takes ~30 minutes. You are able to run around in this car on petrol as long as you like, many supermarkets now and even more in the next decade have free charging so everytime you go for a shop you plug it in, 20 minutes could still get you 40 miles range (I'm not sure what size batteries PHEV's will have by then so that's a guess), that's a free 40 miles you didn't have before so either way it's a positive. You then keep that car for another 7 years, now it's 2048, thats 27 years time
I'd like to hope by that point EVs will be no slower, or perhaps only fractionally, to charge than filling up an ICE vehicle and you will be able to do so at fuel stations up and down the country.
All speculation here but if we're going full EV that will have to happen or something close to it

 

[StevenRB45]

I seem to remember having a discussion on this very topic on this forum god knows how many years ago now.

What do I remember about it was MEP still had his Prius Phev and Andy was involved as well.

But my standpoint at the time was PHEVS and Hybrids were one leap in battery tech away from obsolescence. We've had that leap...and while there are justified concerns about infrastructure and from people who do above average mileages hybrids are effectively dead for anything except tax dodging and buying time until your 0 emissions vehicle is ready.

The ones on the market will continue and as long as wltp continues to be just as inaccurate for hybrids as the old cycle was for diesels they'll be built. But give it 5 years 300+ mile electric cars will be fairly normal...the used 200 mile ones that we have now will be on the used market and the older stuff will be at the bottom of the market.

 

[Didge3]

I seem to remember having a discussion on this very topic on this forum god knows how many years ago now.

What do I remember about it was MEP still had his Prius Phev and Andy was involved as well.

But my standpoint at the time was PHEVS and Hybrids were one leap in battery tech away from obsolescence. We've had that leap...and while there are justified concerns about infrastructure and from people who do above average mileages hybrids are effectively dead for anything except tax dodging and buying time until your 0 emissions vehicle is ready.

The ones on the market will continue and as long as wltp continues to be just as inaccurate for hybrids as the old cycle was for diesels they'll be built. But give it 5 years 300+ mile electric cars will be fairly normal...the used 200 mile ones that we have now will be on the used market and the older stuff will be at the bottom of the market.

This is exactly my standpoint, I bought my PHEV because I couldn't yet afford a EV with my range requirement. I could've stuck with an ICE vehicle and gotten a newer and possibly nicer car for the same money but I wanted to dip my toe into electric. I am 99% sure my next car will be BEV, probably in 4-5 years time when I'm hoping there will be a reasonable number of 200+ mile range cars on the used market.