Going Electric.. present small car options.. confusing

[DaveMcT]

The battery car tech already exists but Tesla are the only people offering a really useable version. They are more cost effective in depreciation and running costs and they have a (mostly) great charging network but they are so not cheap and to date no small models.

VW, the only major car maker with a pressing reason to go electric, has still not released their ID3 and nobody offers a small car with a half decent range. I don't think that will happen until the cars are designed from the outset for electric. It's not as simple as chucking a battery in the boot and new "engine" in the front

 

[PuntoHowTo]

VW, the only major car maker with a pressing reason to go electric, has still not released their ID3 and nobody offers a small car with a half decent range. I don't think that will happen until the cars are designed from the outset for electric. It's not as simple as chucking a battery in the boot and new "engine" in the front

The VW ID3 came out towards the end of October beginning of November and I’ve personally already seen 3 on on the road as well as having my local vw dealers bombard me with marketing to come and buy one.

Also there are plenty of new electric cars now with usable range, the Kia Niro which has I think already been mentioned in this thread, not only has a better range than a model 3 it also costs less and there is a queue of people wanting to buy them.

 

[DaveMcT]

The Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona are much the same car though the latter has a bit more space. Reviews seem to prefer the Kona. The main issue for me would be depreciation costs. Tesla are not cheap and they mimic the walled garden approach of Apple computers, but they do seem to hold their value very well indeed. That's all fine if you want a "sedan". Not so fab if you don't.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The main issue for me would be depreciation costs. Tesla are not cheap and they mimic the walled garden approach of Apple computers, but they do seem to hold their value very well indeed.

Non of them are Depreciating, people are Queuing up to buy the Kona, and the e-niro, if anything at the moment with the Tesla being more available and a growing competition the expensive Tesla are now showing signs of depreciation that the other's aren't. The only bad thing that Elon Musk could say negatively about the ID3 was that it wasn't as fast. And honestly with the new explosion in the VW camp with the iD4 also on its way, Tesla will become more like the Mercedes of old with depreciation to match.

The Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona are much the same car though the latter has a bit more space.

Further up in your post you seemed to not even know these existed....

The battery car tech already exists but Tesla are the only people offering a really useable version.

yet you've literally just pointed out that the only option for a tesla is a sedan, making the other cars, including the iD3 which is now out, are more useable than the tesla.

Just to point out your massive self contradiction

If you want to spend Tesla money on an practical car there is also the I-Pace EV400 with 400bhp an SUV form and a 300 mile range....

 

[DaveMcT]

Here we go again. Looking to start an argument over something so trivial. Deal with it!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Here we go again. Looking to start an argument over something so trivial. Deal with it!

Just pointing out you’ve not a clue what you’re talking about but you’re happy to talk about it with authority.

One minute there is nothing to rival the Tesla but when corrected suddenly you have an opinion on that as well

 

[nitramtpr]

I did quite a lot of research into cars earlier in the year as I was in the market for a new car (well year to 18 months old), I looked at the range of electric cars available at the time and came to the decision that there weren't any that I either wanted and/or could afford. The main conclusion I came to was electric tech is still a bit to immature, the batteries are too heavy and the range isn't enough. I was after an estate car and at the time there was not one electric estate car on the market.
I really do not like SUVs so that took many options off the table.
The hatchbacks available (until the ID3 came out) were all combustion engined cars that had been made electric (apart from the Leaf and Zoe, which were far too small (I think)).
The ID3 is priced comically, it's marketed as the first mass market family car that was designed as electric from the start yet the cheapest version is £29k with the grant taken off, that's far too expensive for the cheapest version. I don't understand how the ID3 is so expensive, they're gonna sell bucket loads of them so why isn't it £25k with the grant knocked off? Based on volume alone I bet the cost of the batteries and electric motors aren't that much more than a petrol engine and all ancillaries. The equivalent Golf is £23k, a Hybrid Focus is £22k.

If you don't do a huge amount of miles on a regular basis (say a 15 mile commute each way) then an electric car will save you money in the long run. All you'd need to do is remember to charge it up overnight when it gets to say 10% capacity and you'll be fine. It'll cost pennies to run. On a long run you just need to plan your route well, most of the motorway services now have fast charging points, the time it takes to stop for a loo, coffee, burger break etc will get you topped up enough for at least 100 or so more miles.

However...if you don't have off road parking and don't trust charging your car with a long lead trailing from your house to the roadside then you'll be dependant upon the public charging network and that is a lot more expensive than doing an overnight charge at home, albeit it could be a lot quicker.

In the end I bought a petrol Focus estate, it'll do me just fine for about 3 or 4 years after which time I'll sell and will probably then revisit the electric world.

One final thing....some of my work colleagues have got electric MGs and love them. They're quite well specced and keenly priced, they also brought out an electric estate 2 months after I got my Focus :bang:

Here is an example lease deal from leaseloco for an Electric MG, 12k per year, 3 year deal. Bear in mind this is a lease and not a PCP deal.

MG are currently doing a 0% PCP deal, only 8K but it works out more expensive than the lease over the 3 years

One other final thing...I will also recommend the Fully Charged Show, loads of great stuff on there about electric cars (and houses, bikes, etc.)

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Fully charged have just dropped there first drive of the new fiat 500e

https://youtu.be/JsSAPAkTfT8

One thing that jumps out is that fiat have really upped their game on interior finishes it looks more on par inside, with some higher end cars, then again the electric car being so expensive means they need to make something to compete with the Mini Cooper

 

[StevenRB45]

Late Brake Show /Jonny Smith review of the 500 (assume the embargo must have lifted today).

https://youtu.be/JSwvQE0tgyM

Bit more facts and detail heavy.. I tend to find Rob Llewelleyn a bit short on actual info but long opinions.

However the phrase "cheekycentoblinder" can absolutely do one.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I may have booked myself a test drive of an iD3 for Saturday, will be interesting to see how it compares.

They gave me a little show round the car yesterday but as they had only just opened after lockdown there was no one available to be able to organise a test drive

 

[StevenRB45]

They look a nice car...bit cheap and nasty inside for the price point but otherwise fills the brief of "Electric Golf" well.

Early ones do seem to have habit of bricking themselves though due to a 12v battery that goes flat if left a few days.

That have a good play with the infotainment thingy, personally I find the idea of sliding my finger on a screen to adjust things in a bouncing car to be a bit daft. I can get away with prodding at it, but things like making gestures without looking at it and pinch zoom style stuff is not great.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

In person from the outside they feel like an over sized BMW i3. Having looked around it there is nothing that really leaps out at me. It’s a very “normal” seeming car, which is likely why it’s being heralded as being a ‘game changer’ it makes an electric car a very normal and familiar thing.

 

[andydiver]

Thank you for this, feel much the same about the situation overall. An observation is that the way deals deter even modestly high miliage on Ice cars should not be copied into the electronic world. Two reasons, the initial extra cost of electric is best amortised over bigger miles, the C02 benefit is greater if you have to do the miles and there are far fewer high miliage depreciation assets on an electric car. The degradation curves of the batteries are very well modelled and proper charging regime will be the deciding factor, a depreciation penalty weighed for bad battery use would be better.
The big problem is that car companies make most money in loans / rental / bubble payments/services etc than the vehicle and electric cars ought not fit well with any of those models if properly manufactured and used.

I did quite a lot of research into cars earlier in the year as I was in the market for a new car (well year to 18 months old), I looked at the range of electric cars available at the time and came to the decision that there weren't any that I either wanted and/or could afford. The main conclusion I came to was electric tech is still a bit to immature, the batteries are too heavy and the range isn't enough. I was after an estate car and at the time there was not one electric estate car on the market.
I really do not like SUVs so that took many options off the table.
The hatchbacks available (until the ID3 came out) were all combustion engined cars that had been made electric (apart from the Leaf and Zoe, which were far too small (I think)).
The ID3 is priced comically, it's marketed as the first mass market family car that was designed as electric from the start yet the cheapest version is £29k with the grant taken off, that's far too expensive for the cheapest version. I don't understand how the ID3 is so expensive, they're gonna sell bucket loads of them so why isn't it £25k with the grant knocked off? Based on volume alone I bet the cost of the batteries and electric motors aren't that much more than a petrol engine and all ancillaries. The equivalent Golf is £23k, a Hybrid Focus is £22k.

If you don't do a huge amount of miles on a regular basis (say a 15 mile commute each way) then an electric car will save you money in the long run. All you'd need to do is remember to charge it up overnight when it gets to say 10% capacity and you'll be fine. It'll cost pennies to run. On a long run you just need to plan your route well, most of the motorway services now have fast charging points, the time it takes to stop for a loo, coffee, burger break etc will get you topped up enough for at least 100 or so more miles.

However...if you don't have off road parking and don't trust charging your car with a long lead trailing from your house to the roadside then you'll be dependant upon the public charging network and that is a lot more expensive than doing an overnight charge at home, albeit it could be a lot quicker.

In the end I bought a petrol Focus estate, it'll do me just fine for about 3 or 4 years after which time I'll sell and will probably then revisit the electric world.

One final thing....some of my work colleagues have got electric MGs and love them. They're quite well specced and keenly priced, they also brought out an electric estate 2 months after I got my Focus :bang:

Here is an example lease deal from leaseloco for an Electric MG, 12k per year, 3 year deal. Bear in mind this is a lease and not a PCP deal.

MG are currently doing a 0% PCP deal, only 8K but it works out more expensive than the lease over the 3 years

One other final thing...I will also recommend the Fully Charged Show, loads of great stuff on there about electric cars (and houses, bikes, etc.)

 

[nitramtpr]

That have a good play with the infotainment thingy, personally I find the idea of sliding my finger on a screen to adjust things in a bouncing car to be a bit daft. I can get away with prodding at it, but things like making gestures without looking at it and pinch zoom style stuff is not great.

Oh this yes, my Focus thankfully has the temperature / fan settings still on normal dials, the infotainment system not only also has steering wheel controls but proper buttons and dials for volume up and down, play / pause.
Quite a few new cars have everything only accessible via a touchscreen, I can see that being a massive pain to adjust whilst driving.
Also isn't accessing a touchscreen illegal on the move, a bit like operating a phone?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Quite a few new cars have everything only accessible via a touchscreen, I can see that being a massive pain to adjust whilst driving.
Also isn't accessing a touchscreen illegal on the move, a bit like operating a phone?

The “touch screen” on the iD3 can also be voice controlled for all the usual things like the heating that you would also use the touch screen for.

The laws that covers holding and using a mobile phone when driving do not apply to a mobile phone that it in a holder or mount, it is specifically related to holding a mobile phone and using it free hand, it then applies to the act of making calls and sending texts not adjusting the heated seat temp on a car dash.

Touch screens have been used in cars for years on infotainment systems and more, the law does not apply to the use of a touch screen it applies to the use of phones, the laws where introduced back when people didn’t have touch screen phones long before the likes of iPhone or android, and when almost every phone had buttons.

 

[StevenRB45]

To me it's the difference in the sort of actions you are being expected to perform on the move.

I can't say I'm against touchscreens per-se given we have a car with touchscreen heating and I fitted one to the other car. But there's a fairly significant difference in the amount of concentration required between needing to prod a button on the screen that's the size of a 2 pound coin to do what you need and having to hold and slide your finger across a certain quadrant of the screen or bezel to achieve the same result.

It's possibly slightly indicative of push back that the next gen of PSA cars seem to be getting more rather than fewer phyical controls having been the leaders in the move to touchscreen heating etc.

Does save the cost of a button though...which given the ID3 is too cheap to even give you a separate row of switches for the rear windows would appear to be the goal.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

To me it's the difference in the sort of actions you are being expected to perform on the move.

I think you've absolutely nailed it here Steven. I have to say that I myself would rather not have screens in cars which require interactive participation causing the concentration to be taken away from concentrating on events taking place outside the car - fine if it's only able to be used by passengers.

However, having said that I think there is a further distinction to be made between using a touch screen to control an aspect of the car - radio volume, heater output, etc - which is an action quickly performed and does not "engage" the brain to any great degree and participating in a 'phone call. Of course it is, I think, generally agreed that trying to hold a phone to your ear whilst driving is potentially very dangerous (I would put smoking behind the wheel in the same category) but I would argue that it's actually the diversion of concentration which is the big problem.

I think there's probably little risk in using a hands free 'phone to ring your mum, wife, bidey-in, or whoever, just to say "I'm on my way, get the dinner on" and then disconnecting. However I do think there is a probably lethal problem with dealing with a longer call and especially one where "serious" things - business deals, relationship issues and a whole host of other possibilities, where something is being discussed which is of significant importance to the 'phone user.

So alright, let folk have their "toys" if they want them - but I don't - but I really do think anyone behind the wheel should not be engaging with a 'phone at all. If you are involved in an accident I think I've seen somewhere that, even if you are using your 'phone hands free, if it is considered that the participating in a 'phone call was a contributing factor to the accident then additional charges can be brought against you?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

To report back on my drive of an iD3 today.

The car is exceptionally surprising for not being surprising to get in it and drive feels like any other car from the VW line up. It was a "first edition" model so it was well kitted with heated seats, steering wheel and the higher end infotainment system.

The one thing to say about the touch screen is just below the touch screen are some physical buttons for the most common features, mainly two heat control buttons for the left and right dual zone climate areas and a control for the volume control for the radio, there are further physical buttons on the steering wheel and the lights are on a little panel between the touch screen and the steering wheel.

There is a single control on the right side of the instrument cluster for the "gears" if you like, twist forward to go forward, backward to go backward and there is a button on the end of the control to apply the hand brake.

It was very nice and very comfortable to cruise along at 70 mph or 7 mph there was little difference to cabin noise, the care is clearly very aerodynamic as there is little wind noise.

I have to confess I was very impressed, the only thing is for a £35,000 car it doesn't feel very luxurious, no leather and no fancy finishes inside or out, the design is quite bland and for that reason I'd mark it down but as a completely functional car it was exceptionally good. Home charging with a Pod Point charger (7KW) takes 9 hours

I'd buy one I honestly would, but currently I have a very limited home set up for charging.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Short Video from the Test Drive and showing the buttons under the touch screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoRVpvcYVfE

 

[richardllew]

I've been running a diesel panda for 13 years (140k miles +) and have had a 2016 Zoé 22kWh model for 2 years and now have a 2018 Zoé 40kWh.
The Zoé is sometimes classified as a small car, but is much bigger than the Panda.
There is not a Panda sized electric car available, the economics just don't work at present.

Electric cars aren't cheap, but they can easily have better acceleration and comfort than any ICE car, the legacy manufacturers just can't use the potential without ruining their performance car sales. Tesla don't have this problem, and have a brilliant supercharger infrastructure.

I test drove the VW ID3 and was impressed with the ride, but it is a big car and the speed indicator was far too near for easy focusing (I'm not young).

My Zoén have been great for all my previous journeys, which were up to 200 miles each way, but now I need to get up to the Highlands frequently, and it is 400 miles + each way and the Zoe recharging on a 400+ mile journey is a pain.

I'm considering a new Panda hybrid as I'm hoping it is more comfortable than my 2007 Panda, and will take a towball which the Zoé will not. Ridiculously, it's either a Panda Hybrid, a Tesla Model 3, or wait for a Tesla Model Y.