General Fire 999 cutting out

[John H]

The hole gives access to a hexagonal adjuster on the points.

Use an "Allen Key" - you need to check the dwell angle, or gap if you can get at it

 

[Enzo]

Originally posted by John H
The hole gives access to a hexagonal adjuster on the points.

Use an "Allen Key" - you need to check the dwell angle, or gap if you can get at it

NO!!You need a torx key,its diameter is 3mm...if you want to see pics on how to do it please visit this (italian[}]) site...www.fiatpanda.cc and click on the word "Utilità"...then on "Distributore d'accensione"...Ok[?]

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Enzo

Originally posted by John H
The hole gives access to a hexagonal adjuster on the points.

Use an "Allen Key" - you need to check the dwell angle, or gap if you can get at it

NO!!You need a torx key,its diameter is 3mm...if you want to see pics on how to do it please visit this (italian[}]) site...www.fiatpanda.cc and click on the word "Utilità"...then on "Distributore d'accensione"...Ok[?]

That's an interesting comment

Firstly, what does Torx in Italian look like??

is what I think they look like.

Secondly, I have adjusted my daughters CL many times: it has a hexagonal hole on that 999 FIRE with a magnetti Marelli distributor.
When I get the chance I'll try and get a picture of the spare set of points we have for it..

<s>Finally, I can't find the distributor bit on the site you mention.</s>
Found it: Chiave a brugola 3

according to this site:

http://www.motocicliste.net/manutenzione/inglese.asp

that translates to Allen wrench in American.

Regards


John H

 

[Enzo]

It's strange...I've a set of Marelli points too, that have been replaced on a Renault 5...maybe they used a Torx screw because french manufacturers love them...in fact I still have a complete set of Allen wrench keys for that car!BTW, this tool is intended for the screw in the pic you posted.

For Simo: the site I adviced you to see recommends a gap of 0.39-0.48mm for the points!Don't forget to check the timing if possible, with a strobo lamp!

 

[Pete]

Use a 3m/m allen key and wrap some tape round the shank of the key or it will arc where it passes through the hole. Turning the allen key moves the fixed point on a fine thread to allow you to set the dwell, for which you will need a dwell meter. This is done with the engine running and assumes that all other settings are good before you start.

If you are setting the points on re-assembling the distributor, set them to 12 to 15 thou ( or whatever the metric equivilent is ) and the adjust the dwell as described when engine is running. Dwell angle is 58 to 64 percent acording to the Haynes manual.
Please let us know how you get on.
Rgds.

 

[John H]

Good point with the tape Pete.

I used to worry about that, but realised that the sparks are when you're shorting out the points - so no harm done, as long as the engine keeps running.

If you get the dwell right, the timing should come back in too - if it was set right previouslyB)

 

[Enzo]

May you explain me better what's the Dwell angle or percentage as I read in the R5 owner's manual[8D][?]

 

[simo7923]

Right i wasnt gonna reply beacuse i've found out what i tis. I think there were a few contributing factors though. I changed the dizzy cap. No working. Took out all spark plugs again and clenaed them again. getting very balck after 20 secs of running. wahey it runs...but badly. I smashed one side of the fixing point on the distributor so its only on with one nut at the moment. I'm fitting new plugs tonight and cleaning out the cylinders of the engine. need a new dizzy now but cant find one in scrappys. Damn.. cheerz for all your help guys..I'll be back on later. Now i know more about the distributor. All my cars havent had dizzys

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Enzo
May you explain me better what's the Dwell angle or percentage as I read in the R5 owner's manual[8D][?]

This is how I understand it:

The Dwell Angle is the angle of rotation of the distributor cam during which the points "Dwell" together, and they will go through that angle 4 times per rotation of a 4 cylinder engine. Again, for a 4 cylinder engine, each cam lobe opens and closes the points for a total angle of 90° of distributor rotation per cylinder. On most cars, manufacturers specify that the points should dwell together for about 2/3 of the total 90°, that is for 60°. Changing the contact breaker Gap, changes the Dwell Angle. If the Gap is very small, the contacts will Dwell together for a long time, then open (and close again) very quickly. Conversely, if the Gap is very wide, the points may not close at all, or only for a small proportion of the time, and hence the Dwell Angle is low.

I pinched that wholesale, as it describes it better than I can, from

http://www.mgbexperience.com/electrical/body_timing.html

I understand there are some dwell meters which are calibrated in percentage, rather angle.

You'd need to know what your meter does because the numbers on a 4 cylinder engine are similar, but different enough for the timing to be not quite right.. 60 degrees is 66.66666 percent.

 

[Enzo]

One time I've seen a strobo lamp with a trimmer on its body showing the print "Dwell angle" and it could have been moved from 50 to 90degrees if I well remember, but the electrician didn't care about itB)!Do you think it's a vital setting for old distributors or we can "forget" it??

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Enzo
One time I've seen a strobo lamp with a trimmer on its body showing the print "Dwell angle" and it could have been moved from 50 to 90degrees if I well remember, but the electrician didn't care about itB)!Do you think it's a vital setting for old distributors or we can "forget" it??

I'm not sure about the significance of that trimmer on a strobe.

I'd say dwell needs to be somewhere near, if it's far out and the timing is right you will get poor spark at high engine speed.

Commonly when it's wrong the timing is wrong too (they interact) and you get poor performance and poor economy.

I'd say most important is the timing.

 

[simo7923]

Thats some great info there guys. Better understanding of primitave engine management [^]. anyone know where i can get hold of a cheap dizzy. went 40 miles to a scrappy who said he had one for £15. got there and it looked nearly new. blew into the advance vaccum unit and the diaphram had gone. said na i want another and he said well you wanted a dizzy here it is. well a working one would have been nice. looked all over and fiat are trying to bleed me.

 

[John H]

If your old vacuum advance is OK you should have got it.

The advance capsule is removeable (needs to come off to do the points anyway), but you have to be very careful.

I don't quite understand how you broke the original though [:0]

Did you undo the obvious nut, not find the other one, and pull hard??B)[xx(][:0]

 

[simo7923]

no i was putting it back on in the dark...got the top nut on and was tightening the bottom..heard a snap..presume it was because it wasnt lined up properly with the camshaft. i know its cast but i might try some jb weld on it first.

 

[fiatuno1990]

Originally posted by John H
When the guts of a Magnetti Marelli distributor fail the lack of spark is total:
no spark on any cylinder, as the electronics (which are the substitute for the points) cease to work.
Most common when hot, usually starts OK, then fails in a traffic hold upB).

In the early stages it will work again after a few minutes cooling off.
I understand it gets worse, but fixed mine before it drove me completely mad

Dissimilar sparks between plugs may well be the leads - measure their resistance:
I'm at work now, and can't remember the figures at the moment, but anything above a handfull of K Ohms is too high.
Compare them, you'll soon see if you've got some odd values.

If it is the distributor, I don't think you can get the component parts (other than the vacuum advance, which won't cause your problems anyway, the cap, and rotor arm) - a second hand one is anywhere from 20 to 60 UKP depending on how lucky you are.

I hold the view it's this pick up coil which fails

It's a coil in this distributor:
it measures 800 ohms in either direction, and produces a spikey voltage across the two leads when the centre of the distributor is rotated. HES wouldn't do that.
The electronic module it plugs into uses these spikes as the trigger to conduct and switch off.

Hi

Was looking for a post on tracking specification but am sure glad I stumbled on this post.
My sisters car stalls when warm/hot restart after 5/10 min but will not pull or stay alive.
Your problem with your uno is almost exactly the same as mine. Its a 999cc 45 fire engine 1990. Did you get the component parts i.e the pick up coil and did it solve the problem? I was about to fork out for a new ignition coil!
Also does it require re-setting the dwell angle?
Also is it possible to clarify the ignition fault diagnosis relevant to the coil as it confuddled me abit. I got the bit from HT lead onwards, but not checking the coil.
#check for switching on the other coil lead# when cranking the engine.
(bad points or condenser or earthing in the distributor)
(you will need to check with respect to +12 if the coil is shot to see the switching as the points provide a switched earth, if the coil primary is OK you will see switching with respect to either +12 or earth)
( for future ref )

 

[John H]

Firstly - has the fault on your sisters UNO just started during the very cold weather??

If so you may have carburettor icing:
there should be an aluminium pipe from the top of the exhaust to the bottom of the airfilter box (at the front of the car, just behind the radiator.)

Note the distributor failure I was talking about before is when everything is absolutely stinking hot, during a heatwave.
Not in the winter.

If you really have (electronic, not points) distributor problems the few in the UK I know about were fixed with a scrapyard replacement.

"Enzo" will tell you the parts are available in Italy...

 

[Enzo]

All the distributor internals are available...mind I recently replaced the oil seal on the spindle!2 weeks ago it's been the time for the cap...btw the pickup and the module are separately available.


Passion has neither brands nor models!

La passione non ha nè marche nè modelli!
(Quite happy dark met. blue Panda driver!)