General Fire 999 cutting out

[simo7923]

Hi people. I have an f reg panda. I';ve had a problem where the engine will just cut out mid drive and will not start again for a couple of days. this is after ive stripped all the sparking gear out. I've checked the spark on all cylinders and they seem to be tempramental. Sometimes spark and sometimes dont. No2 seems to be the worst. once i've put them back in again they work. I'll turn the engine off after that and it wont work again for another 5 mins if at all. anyone know any case similar to this. I dont want to have to chnage the distributor and the rest to find out first. thanx

 

[John H]

When the guts of a Magnetti Marelli distributor fail the lack of spark is total:
no spark on any cylinder, as the electronics (which are the substitute for the points) cease to work.
Most common when hot, usually starts OK, then fails in a traffic hold upB).

In the early stages it will work again after a few minutes cooling off.
I understand it gets worse, but fixed mine before it drove me completely mad

Dissimilar sparks between plugs may well be the leads - measure their resistance:
I'm at work now, and can't remember the figures at the moment, but anything above a handfull of K Ohms is too high.
Compare them, you'll soon see if you've got some odd values.

If it is the distributor, I don't think you can get the component parts (other than the vacuum advance, which won't cause your problems anyway, the cap, and rotor arm) - a second hand one is anywhere from 20 to 60 UKP depending on how lucky you are.

I hold the view it's this pick up coil which fails

It's a coil in this distributor:
it measures 800 ohms in either direction, and produces a spikey voltage across the two leads when the centre of the distributor is rotated. HES wouldn't do that.
The electronic module it plugs into uses these spikes as the trigger to conduct and switch off.

Do they sell them in Italy, Enzo [?]
If so, how many Euros[?][?]


Regards


John H

 

[simo7923]

brilliant. quite indepth. so i'm looking at getting a new distributor then. first signs of wear i'm seeing? as i dont have any manuals in front of me am i looking at a nightmare of a job or simply disconnecting from cam? cheerz for the insight mate

 

[John H]

Almost certainly, if you have the Magnetti Marelli distributor.

I still don't know the exact cause of the failure - I've seen it in print as the wires cracking on the sensor/pick up coil, but I can't see anything wrong on the one I looked at yesterday

The distributor is held on with a pair of 10mm nuts, then just unplugs from the end of the camshaft.

You will loose the ignition timing.


Regards


John H

 

[simo7923]

smashing..nice easy job then.well if i get the timing roughly on i'll get it to a garage to see if they'll sort the timgin out. cheerz again

 

[John H]

<blockquote id="quote"> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simo7923
Hi people. I have an f reg panda. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font size="5">Hold it!!</font id="size5">

I really aught to read the posts a bit more carefully:

Unless your Panda is 4x4, or has been modified by a previous owner, on a "F" plate you will have a set of points (and condenser) inside your distributor, rather than the electronics I've been wittering on about:I[)]B)

These are awkward to replace, and expensive for what they are.
If you do the trick with the scribed line across where the body of the distributor and the cylinder head meet, you can take the distributor off it you need to - which can hekp to see what you're doing - and put it back in much the same position.

ISTR the vacuum advance unit needs to come off as well when you do the points (take great care as they break where they clip onto the base).

All in all a fiddly, messy job - which is why it gets ignored until you can't adjust the gap anymore (small hex key down a hole in the body - you can adjust dwell while it's running if you have access to a meter).

Let us know what's inside your distributor.

Apologies.


John H

 

[simo7923]

well i've got the distributor off and i did scribe accorss the dizzy as thats what i do anyway when stripping the cam belt off. came to ask how to strip down the dizzy when i saw your post. so it's a small hex is it. so what is it looking like the problem could be now. can it be cured by simply replacing dizzy and cap?

 

[simo7923]

sorry for the lack of info but its not my car and i dont know fiat. every time i have to strip apart off i have to drive across town to see it.

 

[simo7923]

checked the advance vacuum unit...a ok. supose it has to go back on car for further testing

 

[John H]

As you've probably discovered by now the distributor dismantles from the top down to get at the points (assuming they need changing).

Lack of spark with a set of points shouldn't be too difficult to get to the bottom of, as long as it will stay faulty:

measure +12 on supply to the coil + with ignition "on"
(ignition switch or wiring)

check for switching on the other coil lead when cranking the engine.
(bad points or condenser or earthing in the distributor)
(you will need to check with respect to +12 if the coil is shot to see the switching as the points provide a switched earth, if the coil primary is OK you will see switching with respect to either +12 or earth)

check for spark from the coil HT lead.
(bad coil or lead)

check for sparks on each plug lead.
(bad distributor cap, or rotor arm, or leads, or plugs)

you could do the low voltage checks with a 6 watt bulb.

you could check the HT with a spare spark plug, but take care with the HT, it hurts.

those checks should localise the problem.

Anyone think of anything I've missed??

 

[Enzo]

We don't know if this distributor has points or it's a breakerless one yet[^]!By the way here single Marelli spare parts are sold...but don't know their exact prices, except for the vacuum unit which costed me 7.50€, while the module has been replaced by an electrician some years ago for 50eurosB)!This occurred because I wasn't deep in mechanics yet!

 

[simo7923]

i have the thing sat here in front of me now. unfortunatley i dont have a camera to show you. i've checked spark from coil thru king lead = ok. checked psark from dizzy cap thru ht lead and through plugs. = tempramental. the fault doesnt stay so not sure if it is the spark or not. possible dizzy cap? or what else ido not know. may have to invest in another haynes

 

[John H]

<blockquote id="quote"> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Enzo
We don't know if this distributor has points or it's a breakerless one yet[^]!By the way here single Marelli spare parts are sold...but don't know their exact prices, except for the vacuum unit which costed me 7.50€, while the module has been replaced by an electrician some years ago for 50eurosB)!This occurred because I wasn't deep in mechanics yet!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Fair point about the distributor: Simo7923 can you put me out of your misery
points, or electronic??

By the age of the car (F plate 1988 or 1989) in standard UK specification 2 wheel drive would have points.
However it is a common modification to replace it with electronic, because the points are so expensive.

Regarding replacing the module - I think even I could change one in 15 minutes or so: 4 screws, and two plug in connectors.
The pick up coil is a different matter - I'd like an hour to do that:I

 

[John H]

<blockquote id="quote"> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simo7923
i have the thing sat here in front of me now. unfortunatley i dont have a camera to show you. i've checked spark from coil thru king lead = ok. checked psark from dizzy cap thru ht lead and through plugs. = tempramental. the fault doesnt stay so not sure if it is the spark or not. possible dizzy cap? or what else ido not know. may have to invest in another haynes
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Looks like HT problems from your last post:

A multimeter would be better value than a Haynes - check the resistance of the HT leads, especially while flexing them.

Look carefully at the inside of the distributor cap for tracking marks.
Make sure it's nice and clean too.

Check also the rotor arm for tracking and cleanliness.

 

[simo7923]

ht and plugs are brand spankers. inside dizzy cap is clean but there are track marks although i cant see why it would work and then wouldnt and then would if you see what i mean. i'm gonna replace the dizzy cap anyway as it sos cheap. ill post once done. p.s its not my car so im not too ofay with it

 

[John H]

would that be
au fait
or
Aw! FIAT!! :I[)]

 

[simo7923]

and the jokes just keep on comingB)

 

[John H]

Apologies :I

It's been a long day |)

 

[Enzo]

Originally posted by John H
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Enzo
We don't know if this distributor has points or it's a breakerless one yet[^]!By the way here single Marelli spare parts are sold...but don't know their exact prices, except for the vacuum unit which costed me 7.50€, while the module has been replaced by an electrician some years ago for 50eurosB)!This occurred because I wasn't deep in mechanics yet!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Fair point about the distributor: Simo7923 can you put me out of your misery
points, or electronic??

By the age of the car (F plate 1988 or 1989) in standard UK specification 2 wheel drive would have points.
However it is a common modification to replace it with electronic, because the points are so expensive.

Regarding replacing the module - I think even I could change one in 15 minutes or so: 4 screws, and two plug in connectors.
The pick up coil is a different matter - I'd like an hour to do that:I

I remember a lot of Uno sold here with fire engines had the breakerless distibutor even in the late '80s...but I've an old Panda owner's book where is described the procedure to set the points' gap, and it's intended for 750 and 1000 carburettor engines! By the way I paid 16€ a set of Marelli points a month ago...how much on your isle[8D][?]

 

[simo7923]

now, looking into the side of this distributor there is ahole but on looking indie doesnt look like there is a way to adjust anything. when i blow into it it just sounds hollow.