General Fiat 500 Hybrid owner handbook to download?

[AGH1965]

Are we 100% sure the previous vehicle ( in service) was that light..??

No, I'm rather convinced it wasn't that light. More than a year ago I read on the website of one of the car magazines, that with the introduction of the current legislation including WLTP cycle, also the rules for determination of the weight were changed to get more realistic results. Apparently car manufactures had been too "creative" when determining the weight of their cars. Unfortunately I can't find it anymore, first of all because I don't remember which car magazine it was.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

That’s a lot of unjustified conclusions in a few paragraphs.

Back in the day circa 2010 when the twinair came out everyone got all excited over it’s Mpg figures, however in the real world and with a normal driver it was essentially impossible to meet the claimed figures. The reason being that the whole set up of the car was designed specifically to get good results on the MPG tests,

In my opinion what we are seeing here is an evolution of that. You cannot create or destroy energy and this car is not externally charged, the power for the battery and motor all comes from the petrol burnt by the engine so the only improvements in economy come from how energy is harvested back. So as an example charging the battery more rapidly when idling (regenerative braking) this means the wheel brakes are used less and the resistance of the generator/alternator is ramped up to slow the car but also make more electricity. That’s just how these systems work.

The motor does not drive the wheels. This is of course open to how you interpret the system, however there is no point that the engine is switched off and the motor alone is powering the vehicle along.
The car as you’ve pointed out weighs more, which needs more power. Ok maybe not 5hp, but as I’ve argued before the motor for the hybrid drive produces about the same amount of power as the aircon compressor uses, want to save fuel turn off the aircon.

A 48v system is not more going to be in anyway significantly more complicated, a 24v, 36v or 48v would provide a better system than using 12v at the end of the day it’s a battery and a motor, the higher the voltage the more power can be delivered from the battery without increasing the current. This is a high current system for such a low voltage. The 148w battery will not power the 3.6kW motor for very long at all, so repeated stop starts would very quickly kill the battery, and as such from that point on the car is burning fuel to charge the battery even if the car is not moving, from that point stop start won’t work. The 11ah in the lithium battery is not going to even be as reliable as the 80+ Ah battery fitted to a normal
Fiat 500 when it comes to stop start.

Most of the “advances” In this exists and has existed for many years in plenty of other cars. My sceptical view is that fiat have an old model and sales are dropping, they have a few more months before a new car comes to market, they have had serious problems with their other engines and for some time now have been limited to only offering a 1.2 engine in their small cars. Everyone loves the word hybrid. So they have done the absolute bare minimum to be able to use the hybrid badge on their car. They have designed the sent up specifically to look good on MPG tests. The customer will be paying for this as a premium on a new car.

The sensible thing In my view would be to save the money on the hybrid and buy the petrol model, or wait till the new model 500 is launched in the next year or so.

It is all a wonderful marketing gimmick

 

[Officina red]

The use of the term hybrid is marketing, it’s more like enhanced stop start, but I had a short test drive in one, and I liked it, up to 50 it feels quick, the gearbox is great, and it seems like it has more torque and just a nicer drive and gear change over the 1.2 , which did surprise me.

Very good deals (before lockdown) with the fiat affinity scheme as well.

 

[Samuel D]

It is all a wonderful marketing gimmick

You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but you haven’t shown it comes from a position of knowledge.

The TwinAir was a product of the 1990s-era NEDC test cycle and lax controls on the test conditions (ambient temperature up to 30°C, arbitrarily inflated tyres, etc.) that, combined, demanded a low average power from the engine. That was best served by an aggressively downsized engine to reduce throttled pumping losses.

Later the TwinAir got better efficiency at higher power outputs too. (I’ve seen TwinAir fuel economy figures for the Panda that show impressive values for the extra-high speed part of the WLTP cycle.)

However, the main thing is to know how to drive these engines. Too many people rev them needlessly at partial throttle, a particularly inefficient way to drive. Change up and open the throttle more instead, unless that would require flooring the pedal. The gear-change indicator is there to help if the driver isn’t too stubborn to follow it (many think they know better, wrongly of course).

Anyway, NEDC is history. We now have the WLTP test cycle. This pretty closely reflects real-world use (for fairly aggressive drivers who brake too often, etc.). Moreover, there’s less scope to cheat because the regulators ruled out the loopholes that were being used to game the NEDC cycle.

Meanwhile, car companies are being required to meet the EU’s fleet-wide 95 g/km CO2 average emissions target. (CO2 emissions are directly proportional to fuel burned, so this is just another way of specifying a fuel-economy target.) And European countries each have their own tax incentives for customers to buy less consuming cars.

It is for these extremely strong reasons, not advertising gimmicks, that Fiat needed to introduced the new engine and hybrid system in the 500. FCA is paying Tesla €1.8 billion this year to pool its cars with Tesla’s for the purpose of the 95 g/km CO2 target, to avoid even larger fines by the European Commission. The need to reduce fuel consumption on the realistic WLTP cycle is utterly imperative, not optional.

There were three hybrid choices. The 12 V system they used, a more complex and capable 48 V system (like the new Golf) or a high-voltage system (like the Prius). There aren’t 24 V or 36 V options, so I don’t know why you mentioned those.

Each of these is progressively more expensive and requires more space in the vehicle. Since the Fiat 500 system had to fit into an already designed car, and that car is small, space was at an extreme premium. Cost is also important in a small car. For these reasons they opted for the 12 V system.

It assuredly reduces real-world fuel consumption. How much power an air-conditioning compressor uses (much less than 5 horsepower these days) has nothing to do with this.

 

[Samuel D]

The use of the term hybrid is marketing, it’s more like enhanced stop start, but I had a short test drive in one, and I liked it, up to 50 it feels quick

So which is it? Is it marketing or does it feel quick?

The reason it feels quick is that it boosts power by 5 horsepower. That doesn’t sound much compared to the engine’s output of 70 horsepower, but that’s with the engine screaming at 6000 RPM. Few people take it up to 6000 RPM even when they think they’re accelerating hard onto a motorway or something. When they’re taking off at a green light, the engine is often at a speed where full throttle equates to maybe 20 horsepower. Adding 5 horsepower to that is a 25% increase and very noticeable.

None of this matters to me because I usually drive gently, and on the rare occasion I need to accelerate hard, I know to get the RPM properly up. But I’ll gladly take the fuel economy.

 

[Officina red]

So which is it? Is it marketing or does it feel quick?

It’s both , it’s not a hybrid like the Toyota Yaris or the new Honda jazz, it’s what the car industry call a mild hybrid and that is marketing for enhanced stop start, just like the Suzuki ignis/swift is a “mild hybrid”

But it does feel quick, it’s gearing is set up to help that, and it’s a nice engine/car to drive.

 

[Samuel D]

The motor is connected to the engine’s crankshaft with a belt. When powered up, as happens on every acceleration, it contributes to driving the car.

Describing that as enhanced stop-start is probably more confusing than calling it a hybrid, but indeed it’s mild.

 

[varesecrazy]

'Inedefinite life cam chain'

Dont post that in the Doblo section

Twinairs dont have a reputation for needing chains.. but by definition.. they tend to have the crucial oil quality to reach any great mileage

The reality is the 'firefly' has been in service long enough to get a flavour of its pros and cons

Unfortunately my Spanish/Portugues is lousy

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The motor is connected to the engine’s crankshaft with a belt. When powered up, as happens on every acceleration, it contributes to driving the car.

At best it takes some of the stress away from the engine, There is no time that the motor single handedly drives the wheels of the car, it always requires the engine to be running. you can gain 5hp after an oil service or lose 5 hp with a dirty air filter. When you talk about it feeling "quick" its all relative. Is there for example going to be a massive fuel economy difference between a petrol engine with 70hp or 75 hp.

The best way to describe the system is to say it is using energy that would be otherwise wasted, then feeds it back into the mix when needed, like a low spec Kers unit. At full power the battery could only manage about 2 minutes of run time to the motor and then its completely depleted.

Describing that as enhanced stop-start is probably more confusing than calling it a hybrid, but indeed it’s mild.

But it is an enhanced stop start. I've had this argument before. Everything the fiat hybrid does my 5 year old Bluemotion golf does with the exception of one thing and that's tuning its alternator into a motor.

The benz Patent motor car of 1900 had 16 hp, weighed 100 kg and still only had a top speed of 10mph, so how much of a contribution do you think this hybrid system will really be making? With a 14 second 0- 60, its not exactly setting the world alight with speed. Looking around at the reviews I see that it is not getting the claimed 53mpg, more like 43mpg which is the sort of economy I was getting out of my 2006 1.4 8v punto grande.

Also while fiat claim it will safe CO2 emissions by 30% and some figures have the CO2 output of 88g/km, other official figures seem to suggest its been measured as doing 119/120g/km of CO2. Which is the same sort of figures at my 2004 punto multijet or my current 2015 2.0 litre diesel golf.

It really is not the greatest thing in the world and I'd wager that fiat could have produced a perfectly good little engine and car if they had forgotten about the hybrid system all together and just fitted thr 3 cylinder engine, maybe a small turbo.

 

[Samuel D]

The reality is the 'firefly' has been in service long enough to get a flavour of its pros and cons

Unfortunately my Spanish/Portugues is lousy

If I knew which cars had this engine I might look into that. I can read Portuguese though not Spanish.

 

[Samuel D]

At best it takes some of the stress away from the engine

You keep saying this but I don’t understand why. It contributes 5 horsepower for free for short periods of time (acceleration phase).

Ignore the air conditioner, air filter, oil change, or whatever else is distracting you from understanding this. Five free horsepower.

Is there for example going to be a massive fuel economy difference between a petrol engine with 70hp or 75 hp.

No, but the question betrays a continuing lack of understanding. The 5 horsepower motor is on top of an existing engine and harvests most of its energy for free when the car would otherwise be dumping heat into the brakes.

At full power the battery could only manage about 2 minutes of run time to the motor and then its completely depleted.

And that’s plenty to accelerate up to speed. The next time the car needs to accelerate up to speed, the battery will have been charged again from the last deceleration.

[…] so how much of a contribution do you think this hybrid system will really be making? With a 14 second 0- 60, its not exactly setting the world alight with speed.

That time is for accelerating at around 6000 RPM. That’s not how most people drive most of the time. They accelerate between traffic lights at 2000 RPM. At 2000 RPM, the hybrid motor boosts engine power by 25%. That’s a plainly noticeable improvement in responsiveness and it comes with zero throttle lag.

To put it another way, 3.6 kW is like five adult men shoving the back of the car with as much force as they can muster for about ten seconds. So violently pushing with all their force.

Looking around at the reviews I see that it is not getting the claimed 53mpg, more like 43mpg which is the sort of economy I was getting out of my 2006 1.4 8v punto grande.

Links to reviews? Not that I particularly care about a reviewer’s anecdotal, incompetently measured economy or your biased claim for a Grande Punto.

Also while fiat claim it will safe CO2 emissions by 30% and some figures have the CO2 output of 88g/km, other official figures seem to suggest its been measured as doing 119/120g/km of CO2. Which is the same sort of figures at my 2004 punto multijet or my current 2015 2.0 litre diesel golf.

You’re mixing NEDC, WLTP, and WLTP-to-NEDC normalised figures, although I suspect you know that.

It really is not the greatest thing in the world and I'd wager that fiat could have produced a perfectly good little engine and car if they had forgotten about the hybrid system all together and just fitted thr 3 cylinder engine, maybe a small turbo.

Maybe, but it would have burned more fuel and required Fiat to pay another billion euros or so to Tesla or the EC in fines while contributing further to global warming.

 

[varesecrazy]

If I knew which cars had this engine I might look into that. I can read Portuguese though not Spanish.

Uno.. and other Brazilian built FIAT's

Its been in service @3 years..

 

[PuntoHowTo]

You keep saying this but I don’t understand why. It contributes 5 horsepower for free for short periods of time (acceleration phase).

No no no no no! Not 5 Free horse power 5 more horse power, that 5 horse power is still taken from the engine. The power for it still comes from the engine.

The fact of the matter is for every horse power added that energy has to come from somewhere and in these cars it comes from burning fuel. Efficiency comes from using fuel that would otherwise be wasted, such as when rolling down a hill, engine power isn't needed but the engine still needs to run.

It's not really much different in that respect to exhaust gasses used spin a turbo.

My point here with referencing the aircon is that the compressor for the aircon can easily eat 5hp of the engine's power, as can a dirty air filter. You can free up an equal amount of power by turning off the aircon. Or changing the air filter on a car with a dirty air filter.

but the question betrays a continuing lack of understanding. The 5 horsepower motor is on top of an existing engine and harvests most of its energy for free when the car would otherwise be dumping heat into the brakes.

I know exactly how this works, there are a lot of complex things going on, all dictated by physics, (i spent many years working as an electronics engineer) the main point here is if the electric motor is generating drive the engine HAS to be running. Yes it gains power at times that energy would be wasted, but For example my diesel golf has regenerative braking, to push more power into the battery, and the alternator switches off on acceleration. It has a starter motor, the only real difference with this set up, is sometimes the starter motor comes on to help the engine a little, sometimes, but the battery can't do this for long.

And that’s plenty to accelerate up to speed. The next time the car needs to accelerate up to speed, the battery will have been charged again from the last deceleration.

5hp is not plenty to accelerate up to speed. The engine does that, the motor sometimes will provide a little assistance.

This is where the skeptic bit comes in. The WLTP test contains about 25 minutes of driving with a number of stop starts, in my view this "hybrid" set up will work in giving some additional bost for no more than the requirements of the WLTP test, outside of this, if you where driving through central london (or paris) in stop start traffic for an hour or so. firstly you won't be generating any power from rolling off the gas to charge your battery, secondly the battery only provides about 2 minutes of useful power. So very shortly into your journey the battery will need recharging and the engine will need to run continuously to do that. At least with a conventional stop start set up. The battery is charged and left alone when driving, and when stopped the battery is ready for the next start.
I could argue back and forth about the subtle differences here, but the essence is that this setup does not really offer much to help, other than maybe the 2 minutes the battery can provide being enough to manage the stop starts and acceleration cycles needed on the Wltp test.

That time is for accelerating at around 6000 RPM. That’s not how most people drive most of the time. They accelerate between traffic lights at 2000 RPM. At 2000 RPM, the hybrid motor boosts engine power by 25%. That’s a plainly noticeable improvement in responsiveness and it comes with zero throttle lag.

You'd need the exact dyno curve of the petrol engine to make this sort of claim. but something like a diesel will produce all its power at low revs. so what you're suggesting is this gives a diesel like performance, except the easiest way to do that is with a diesel engine... which also does it better.
the 0-60 time of this car does not suggest that the motor is providing any real boost in acceleration, 14 seconds is actually pretty terrible.

To put it another way, 3.6 kW is like five adult men shoving the back of the car with as much force as they can muster for about ten seconds. So violently pushing with all their force.

it could be? maybe, I don't know where you've come by this figure from. There will however come a point when the motor cannot maybe match the speed of the engine, or needs to switch to its generator mode to gain power. If you have done lots of stop starts and the battery is used, then it will need to charge so in those instances the motor will become a generator and won't be giving any power to the engine, but using engine power. we've already established that the battery can only last a max 2.5 minutes when the motor is providing power, so in the real world especially if you do live in a major city, the motor is not going to be working for the majority of the time.

Links to reviews? Not that I particularly care about a reviewer’s anecdotal, incompetently measured economy or your biased claim for a Grande Punto.

not sure my punto claim is bias, I hated the damn thing and 43mpg was probably the average economy figures when the best was probably 47mpg. I drive diesels and they all achieve well above this.

There are loads of reviews about now. They all love the car, the 500 is hard not to love, but time and time again the same things come out, that fiat have done the bare minimum to get away with adding a hybrid badge and they see nothing to gain from buying the hybrid.
I get that you are in love with the Idea of the hybrid but I love convertible cars, doesn't mean they make the most sane choice when it comes to buying a new car. If you want a "hybrid" go and buy something you can plug in, with a big battery that actually then drives the wheels with the engine off, that way you will see real savings in fuel and CO2 emissions. For example a hybrid Mini countryman which is a huge car by comparison, will give 55g/km of CO2 and 88 mpg. It will charge its battery in the same way as the fiat but can also be charged every time you stop it. and you'll get 30 miles on a charge without having to run the engine.

You’re mixing NEDC, WLTP, and WLTP-to-NEDC normalised figures, although I suspect you know that.

maybe, you tell me, I honestly haven't looked that hard into it all. All I can see is that these figures are not setting the world aflame. Mild hybrids compared to full hybrids do not compare, they are barely worth the effort.

Maybe, but it would have burned more fuel and required Fiat to pay another billion euros or so to Tesla or the EC in fines while contributing further to global warming.

Actually FCA is one of the most polluting names in the automotive world, firstly they have done little to improve their technology in recent years, this is about it for their hybrid and electric technology so far. Analysts are also saying they are a long way behind and even with this hybrid set up and the new electric 500 they will still be well above emissions targets across the range so will filling the bank account of a one Mr Musk for some time to come.

They have Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Jeep, Dodge etc. How many hybrid fiat 500s would it take to offset one Dodge Hellcat or Jeep SRT.

 

[Samuel D]

I’m not going to keep this up either, because it’s becoming plain you’re one of those brash alternative-facts guys. To have a sensible debate we would first need to agree on the rough outline of reality.

Simply claiming things like “the compressor for the aircon can easily eat 5hp of the engine's power” doesn’t make them true. That’s wrong for a Fiat 500 and the vast majority of cars on sale in Europe. This isn’t debatable and the facts are readily available.

Dirty air filters don’t reduce engine power at all except at full throttle. The rest of the time the dirty air filter merely throttles the airflow, leaving the actual throttle fractionally more open for a given power requirement. It follows that dirty air filters don’t increase fuel consumption.

More importantly, this and other distractions like AC compressors have nothing to do with the hybrid system that works independently of those.

The WLTP test contains about 25 minutes of driving with a number of stop starts, in my view this "hybrid" set up will work in giving some additional bost for no more than the requirements of the WLTP test, outside of this, if you where driving through central london (or paris) in stop start traffic for an hour or so. firstly you won't be generating any power from rolling off the gas to charge your battery, secondly the battery only provides about 2 minutes of useful power. So very shortly into your journey the battery will need recharging and the engine will need to run continuously to do that. At least with a conventional stop start set up. The battery is charged and left alone when driving, and when stopped the battery is ready for the next start.

Your “view” about this does not change the facts that are sharply at odds with it.

[…] so what you're suggesting is this gives a diesel like performance, except the easiest way to do that is with a diesel engine... which also does it better.

Diesels are a bad idea for other reasons, which is why you can no longer buy a diesel A-segment car even though the pressure on manufacturers and customers to reduce CO2 is stronger than ever.

it could be? maybe, I don't know where you've come by this figure from.

I didn’t make it up. I don’t do that and you shouldn’t either. It’s from NASA’s curve of maximum sustainable power versus time for “healthy men”.

There are loads of reviews about now.

Then it should be easy for you to link to a few that say the 500 Hybrid does 43 MPG.

How many hybrid fiat 500s would it take to offset one Dodge Hellcat or Jeep SRT.

Luckily for FCA, those aren’t sold in Europe so don’t count.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I’m not going to keep this up either, because it’s becoming plain you’re one of those brash alternative-facts guys. To have a sensible debate we would first need to agree on the rough outline of reality.

Lets put that in context, In your last post you commented you where not interested in hearing what reviewers have to say..... you love and want a hybrid, super, go buy one.

If you want to have a discussion about what's best to buy, lets have one. But not a one sided discussion.

Looking into this I have found out some interesting things, the main one being if you want an automatic you can't have the hybrid. and currently on the fiat website, if you want a manual you can't have the 1.2, there is no other engine choice.

So it really comes down to the gearbox you want fitted and really there is no argument for discussion on what engine is best. From a purely theoretical standpoint where the transmission chosen doesn't matter to the owner.

Even with the automatic gearbox and on the same test standard the 1.2 69hp gets a respectable 46mpg, while the hybrid gets 53mpg.


The hybrid gets 119g/Km CO2 on the same standard that the 1.2 automatic gets 138g/km,

The weight is higher on the hybrid, but the Automatic is more expensive.

In all honesty if I where buying one I would not want an automatic and I would want the cheaper car so to that end the hybrid is the only choice.

However do I think that the hybrid technology is as good as they claim...? no, its not, its not a 'proper' hybrid and if it were it would be a much better car.

personally if I wanted to save the planet I'd get an electric car. If i'm going to keep burning fuel, i'll stick to a Euro 6 diesel.


It is widely known that "mild" hybrid cars, including those from audi and alike with 48V setups, are purely there to get better figures on the new WLTP standards, and reduce emissions for the company, as there is simply no other point to them, especially when you fit the world's smallest motor and clip the acceleration of the car. They could easily justify a bigger battery for example purely from the stand point of making it the same price as the auto, which is about £650ish difference. Fiat here have done the bare minimum to achieve what they wanted to, and now you are paying for it, mainly because there has been quite a hike in the price of the new 500 compared to only a couple of years ago.

To Throw a spanner in the works here, you can have for £15920 (cheaper than the 500 hybrid launch edition at £16,900) a VW up GTI which is 115hp verses 70, it will do 0-60 in 8.8s verus 14s, and will still get you 53mpg on the same cycle as the hybrid and 121g/km of co2 on the same cycle, so all in all like for like, if you just played a numbers game the UP GTI is the obvious choice compared to the 500 hybrid launch. And the up does it all without a motor and battery hybrid set up.

 

[Officina red]

To Throw a spanner in the works here, you can have for £15920 (cheaper than the 500 hybrid launch edition at £16,900) a VW up GTI which is 115hp verses 70, it will do 0-60 in 8.8s verus 14s, and will still get you 53mpg on the same cycle as the hybrid and 121g/km of co2 on the same cycle, so all in all like for like, if you just played a numbers game the UP GTI is the obvious choice compared to the 500 hybrid launch. And the up does it all without a motor and battery hybrid set up.

To throw a spanner into the “spanner that’s already in the works” I waited for the VW UP gti to be launched , with the intentions of buying one (a three door in red) had to go to Northampton for the test drive, which is a trip for me from the midlands, at the time the discounted price of a up gti pre reg was £13,000, which of course is about two years ago before the big price rise the up’s have had.

Very disappointed, it didn’t feel special and felt and looked cheap, and not worth £13,000 , the hybrid 500 lounge at £10,645 new , is a better car, more stylish and just special, if I bought one I would de badge the Hybrid badge off the back, just because I thick it spoils the look of the back a bit.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

the hybrid 500 lounge at £10,645 new , is a better car, more stylish and just special,

The 500 hybrid starts at £12,770 ? That’s on the fiat website unless you know something different.

A GTi is definitely going to be more of a drivers car but It’s not sold on it’s style or being the prettiest car on the road

 

[Officina red]

The 500 hybrid starts at £12,770 ? That’s on the fiat website unless you know something different.

A GTi is definitely going to be more of a drivers car but It’s not sold on it’s style or being the prettiest car on the road

Fiat privilege scheme ,£25 to the Fiat Motor Club GB, gets you the voucher you need, When I bought my 500 Abarth the salesman asked if I worked for the nhs, because their discounts were far above that, don’t know if that’s still the case with fiat, (it is with Kia about 40% I believe)

The up gti, I have nothing against the car, but I went there to buy one and had a very good extended test drive, and was very disappointed, it was not worth the money, if it had of been £10000, fair enough, but it’s not worth £13000

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Fiat privilege scheme ,£25 to the Fiat Motor Club GB, gets you the voucher you need, When I bought my 500 Abarth the salesman asked if I worked for the nhs, because their discounts were far above that, don’t know if that’s still the case with fiat, (it is with Kia about 40% I believe)

The up gti, I have nothing against the car, but I went there to buy one and had a very good extended test drive, and was very disappointed, it was not worth the money, if it had of been £10000, fair enough, but it’s not worth £13000

In these instances it’s all very subjective, the amount of money you can get off one car can vary from one day to the next or depending on what person you speak to at the dealer. I have a friend who buys all his new cars through a broker, who plays one dealer off against another. All In all the o oh real way to compare one car to another is the actual book price.

Also your opinion of one car is clearly not going to be the same as someone else’s. Case in point many of the journalists love the up Gti.

 

[chris3234]

In these instances it’s all very subjective, the amount of money you can get off one car can vary from one day to the next or depending on what person you speak to at the dealer. I have a friend who buys all his new cars through a broker, who plays one dealer off against another. All In all the o oh real way to compare one car to another is the actual book price.

Also your opinion of one car is clearly not going to be the same as someone else’s. Case in point many of the journalists love the up Gti.

Journalists seem to love most vag cars and dislike anything fiat