Technical Eleganza Gearbox Issue

[Magpie12]

Hello!

First time posting and not at all car minded but I'm having issues with my garage following a second hand gearbox replacement and figured someone out there might be able to help. Three weeks ago the clutch in my 1.2 57 reg Eleganza went and took my gearbox with it, it's at 119k miles and didn't feel hugely unexpected. My garage replaced the clutch new and used a secondhand 2007 Grande Punto gearbox in it.

It's running great until you hit fifth for motorway dribing and now it feels like it needs extra acceleration to get from 60 to 70 and the car feels like it is struggling. I am eventually getting to 70 but running at 4000 RPM whereas before I could swear it was more like 3500. The car sounds like it is accelerating harder than usual too. I do a lot of motorway driving and have never really felt like it was pushing the car too much before and now I'm feeling nervous about pushing it to speed.

Have just been out for a drive with a mechanic from the garage who says he doesn't feel like anything is amiss and can't really identify the sound. I'm starting to feel a bit like I'm the annoying customer who is worried about nothing and just wanted to check in to see if anyone has any suggestions or reassurance that I'm right to call them out on it.

Thanks!

 

[mjc506]

Different boxes have different gear ratios (for example, the 1.2, 100hp and 4x4 all have different ratios). I'm not sure if the Punto's are different too, but entirely possible.

 

[Magpie12]

Different boxes have different gear ratios (for example, the 1.2, 100hp and 4x4 all have different ratios). I'm not sure if the Punto's are different too, but entirely possible.

Thank you - complete car dunce so apologies if it's a dumb question.

I've been assured by both the garage and the spares place that they are interchangeable - so is it just a matter of settling for the fact my car runs differently now or would you push back with the garage (also low key worrying that I'm going to cause more damage than good by keeping on driving it)?

 

[jrkitching]

It's not just the gearbox ratios which may be different; the final drive ratio may be different also. The Punto is a larger and heavier car; tbh I'd be surprised if the powertrains were identical.

If the car is now definitely running at a higher rpm at 70mph in fifth than it did before, then either the gear ratios or the final drive ratio (or even both) cannot possibly be the same.

The punto gearbox may physically fit; that isn't the same as being directly equivalent.

 

[portland_bill]

Whilst the gearbox casing will be identical, the gear ratios will be different, applicable to each application. This might be the gear ratios, some or all, or just the final drive ratio. Whatever, the Punto box is obviously different.
The garage, of course, did not drive it before the replacement, so have no comparison. Driving it now, they are merely saying that the current box is working fine.
Who decided to source this replacement box, you, or them? If you, then you are responsible for this, adn will either have to live with it, or now source a Panda box, and have that swapped sometime. If they made the decision on what box to fit, did they discuss it with you first? Were you expecting a like-for-like replacement, or did they tell you it was different, but usable? You are not expected to understand much about this, but a lot will depend on the conversation you had with them, and what each side expected. If you wanted a quick repair, as cheap as possible, that is what you've got, so you may have no comeback.
It is difficult for us to advise you definitively about action between you and the garage, as so much will depend on the advice and conversations held. Meanwhile, do not go in angry or upset, as you will need them on your side if you want this sorted amicably.
Now, spend some time thinking through the process, step-by-step. Write down the details of each conversation, in order, as accurately as you can, what you said, what they said, what you expected. That will help you understand whether you got what you asked for, or not.
Ultimately it may come down to whether they explained that the replacement box might be different, or assured you it would be identical.

A solution might be, between you and the garage, take time to find a good Panda box. Then negotiate on price for changing it. Re-sale of the Punto box may recover some of this cost.

 

[Magpie12]

Thank you all - this definitely seems like it might be the issue. The mechanic who fitted it is definitely familiar with my car so am taking him for a drive in the morning to demonstrate my concerns.

The garage put in the order for the gearbox and told me at the time that they were the same, was definitely a quick cheap fix but I wasn't made aware of any of the differences between the two. Considering that my car has been back to the garage twice now with this and they seem baffled I'm starting to question if they knew.

Has typically happened just as I start a new job that needs a lot of motorway driving, so definitely wouldn't have gone with a fix that causes my car to struggle at higher speeds had I known. Wish me luck on my what will now be very cautious and slow commute until we get it sorted.

 

[koalar]

what we need is the revs at say 30mph in 4th. From several cars

I would try mine. But I have no idea if the ratios are right it has a 500 gearbox in it

 

[koalar]

here's mine for what is worth

18K appox, @ 30 MPH, 4th gear

 

[Popitinpete]

Hello!

First time posting and not at all car minded but I'm having issues with my garage following a second hand gearbox replacement and figured someone out there might be able to help. Three weeks ago the clutch in my 1.2 57 reg Eleganza went and took my gearbox with it, it's at 119k miles and didn't feel hugely unexpected. My garage replaced the clutch new and used a secondhand 2007 Grande Punto gearbox in it.

It's running great until you hit fifth for motorway dribing and now it feels like it needs extra acceleration to get from 60 to 70 and the car feels like it is struggling. I am eventually getting to 70 but running at 4000 RPM whereas before I could swear it was more like 3500. The car sounds like it is accelerating harder than usual too. I do a lot of motorway driving and have never really felt like it was pushing the car too much before and now I'm feeling nervous about pushing it to speed.

Have just been out for a drive with a mechanic from the garage who says he doesn't feel like anything is amiss and can't really identify the sound. I'm starting to feel a bit like I'm the annoying customer who is worried about nothing and just wanted to check in to see if anyone has any suggestions or reassurance that I'm right to call them out on it.

Thanks!

Speed indicated on the speedo clock should still be correct? The speedo sender should be calibrated to the same Punto box but different if the panda one was put in or is it all relevant?

Looks like different ratios in the final drive and or gears I'm afraid, they sourced the box so it's up to them to get a proper panda one.

She the bloke who is going on the test drive tomorrow all of these threads, it's the wrong box I'm afraid, it may well fit and work but the internals are not correct

 

[mjc506]

Speed should still be correct - comes from the ABS sensors I believe.

 

[koalar]

Speed should still be correct - comes from the ABS sensors I believe.

correct front sensor except for a few early 1.1 without ABS

 

[rmjbn1]

Our 2004 1.2 does an indicated 22mph per 1000rpm in top. So yes, 70mph would be under 3500rpm.

4000rpm in 5th would see me well north of 80 on the speedo... (I wonder what happens when you hit 88mph in a Panda...)

So it does sound like wrong ratio for the Panda somewhere in the transmission to me.

I'll update with the 30mph in 4th figure when I get a chance - not using the car much at the mo.

@koalar I guess you meant 1.8K? Or are you running a screamer?

 

[koalar]

Our 2004 1.2 does an indicated 22mph per 1000rpm in top. So yes, 70mph would be under 3500rpm.

4000rpm in 5th would see me well north of 80 on the speedo... (I wonder what happens when you hit 88mph in a Panda...)

So it does sound like wrong ratio for the Panda somewhere in the transmission to me.

I'll update with the 30mph in 4th figure when I get a chance - not using the car much at the mo.

@koalar I guess you meant 1.8K? Or are you running a screamer?

yes

 

[Popitinpete]

Hello!

First time posting and not at all car minded but I'm having issues with my garage following a second hand gearbox replacement and figured someone out there might be able to help. Three weeks ago the clutch in my 1.2 57 reg Eleganza went and took my gearbox with it, it's at 119k miles and didn't feel hugely unexpected. My garage replaced the clutch new and used a secondhand 2007 Grande Punto gearbox in it.

It's running great until you hit fifth for motorway dribing and now it feels like it needs extra acceleration to get from 60 to 70 and the car feels like it is struggling. I am eventually getting to 70 but running at 4000 RPM whereas before I could swear it was more like 3500. The car sounds like it is accelerating harder than usual too. I do a lot of motorway driving and have never really felt like it was pushing the car too much before and now I'm feeling nervous about pushing it to speed.

Have just been out for a drive with a mechanic from the garage who says he doesn't feel like anything is amiss and can't really identify the sound. I'm starting to feel a bit like I'm the annoying customer who is worried about nothing and just wanted to check in to see if anyone has any suggestions or reassurance that I'm right to call them out on it.

Thanks!

Show the guy you're going for a test drive with today all of these threads, they have put a gearbox in with the incorrect ratios in by the sound of things.
They sourced the box so they will now need to swap it for the correct one.
Let us know how you get on.

 

[MrMagoo]

Have you verified your speed with a GPS (satnav)?

 

[rmjbn1]

Found this on carfolio.com, showing that 5th gear & final drive are different: https://www.carfolio.com/fiat-grande-punto-1.2-132979
Carfolio claim that: "Only primary sources are used - that is, reputable publications and information supplied by the manufacturers themselves"

Which would indicate that the gearbox casings may be the same between equivalent 1.2 Grande Puntos and Pandas, but the internals are not.

 

[koalar]

Found this on carfolio.com, showing that 5th gear & final drive are different: https://www.carfolio.com/fiat-grande-punto-1.2-132979
Carfolio claim that: "Only primary sources are used - that is, reputable publications and information supplied by the manufacturers themselves"

Which would indicate that the gearbox casings may be the same between equivalent 1.2 Grande Puntos and Pandas, but the internals are not.

!4%

if you were doing 3500 you would now be doing 4000

tyre are the same rolling diameter. 4000 is obviously acceptable in a Punto or maybe my maths is wrong

what I dont get is the car is struggling to accelerate 60-70 post one, should be the opposite

 

[rmjbn1]

1700rpm in 4th at an indicated 30mph for me. On 155/80 R13 tyres.
(It stopped raining so we went to the beach)

 

[DaveMcT]

Punto probably has bigger wheels so would need a lower gear ratio. Punto box in Panda car makes the engine rev too easily and top gear feels like 4th.

 

[rmjbn1]

Specified tyres for Grande Punto were 185/65 R15 = 621mm diameter, = 1950mm circumference
Specified tyres for Panda Eleganza were 165/65 R14 = 570mm diameter, = 1790mm circumference
(My standard spec 155/80 R13 = 578mm diameter, = 1815mm circumference)