Technical Does my key have a transponder

[stylo2000]

Hi - I bought my van a long way back and it only had 1 ignition key and a separate door key which worked the slam locks. The ignition key looks pretty generic no buttons etc. Also the ignition on the van seems to have been tampered with - no outer ring and no plastic tab that I see on other pics. It's a 2008 Relay 2.2 XLWB.

Reason I'm curious is that I had some starting trouble recently and it may be the ignition circuit to the solenoid signal not getting activated properly so am thinking to replace the key/barrel. I guess this will be easier if I don't need to worry about the transponder/immobiliser - though I may need to get a separate immobiliser fitted for my insurance of course.

 

[Communicator]

You are correct in your observation that no transponder aeriel ring is fitted round the ignition barrel. However there remains the possibility that the aeriel has been removed, and placed under the dash, with the transponder chip stuck next to it. Member @bugsymike has a story about this, whereby he ended up washing the chip away when cleaning a pre-used van.

One reason for not removing the transponder system is pure economics, as it allowsuse of an off the shelf replacement lock barrel and key.

If the chip, and aeriel have been removed, the engine control computer will need to have been reprogrammed to remove the immobiliser function.

The standard immobiliser does not interface with the starter solenoid, it only prevents fuel injection, by not allowing the ecu to progress to that stage.

 

[stylo2000]

You are correct in your observation that no transponder aeriel ring is fitted round the ignition barrel. However there remains the possibility that the aeriel has been removed, and placed under the dash, with the transponder chip stuck next to it. Member @bugsymike has a story about this, whereby he ended up washing the chip away when cleaning a pre-used van.

One reason for not removing the transponder system is pure economics, as it allowsuse of an off the shelf replacement lock barrel and key.

If the chip, and aeriel have been demoved, the engine control computer will need to have been reprogrammed to remove the immobiliser function.

The standard immobiliser does not interface with the starter solenoid, it only prevents fuel injection, by not allowing the ecu to progress to that stage.

Ahh interesting thanks so much. I'll take the trim off and have a look for anything that looks like an aeriel / transponder chip. If I'm in luck I can swap over the ignition and have the luxury of 2 keys as well which will be nice as for 10 years I've been dreading the loss of the 1 key thinking I couldn't easily get it copied as I don't have the master key.

Assuming the immobiliser is there it is of course not effective so I should probably have an after market one installed. My van is not new but it does look OK and has a lot inside that may be attractive!

 

[Communicator]

Ahh interesting thanks so much. I'll take the trim off and have a look for anything that looks like an aeriel / transponder chip. If I'm in luck I can swap over the ignition and have the luxury of 2 keys as well which will be nice as for 10 years I've been dreading the loss of the 1 key thinking I couldn't easily get it copied as I don't have the master key.

Assuming the immobiliser is there it is of course not effective so I should probably have an after market one installed. My van is not new but it does look OK and has a lot inside that may be attractive!

My 2006 x244 2.8jtd is even older. Similar sentiments apply.

 

[stylo2000]

So after taking things apart I now have the barrel out. I notice that there is actually the aeriel - just a bit hidden behind the grey plastic trim.

I have a new assembly arriving imminently so am thinking I can just replace the barrel (so the part the key directly goes in and the part around that which came out together. But then I will need to keep my old ignition key with the transponder in my van to hold near the ignition when starting? Does the transponder have to be there just for starting or is it needed all the time the engine is running?

Another question - I tested putting the barrel back into the main assembly but don't see how the sprung release button stays down when inserting it so it gets blocked when that pops up - is there a trick to this?

 

[bugsymike]

Ahh interesting thanks so much. I'll take the trim off and have a look for anything that looks like an aeriel / transponder chip. If I'm in luck I can swap over the ignition and have the luxury of 2 keys as well which will be nice as for 10 years I've been dreading the loss of the 1 key thinking I couldn't easily get it copied as I don't have the master key.

Assuming the immobiliser is there it is of course not effective so I should probably have an after market one installed. My van is not new but it does look OK and has a lot inside that may be attractive!

You may find a good auto locksmith can sort it without the master key.
The one @Communicator mentioned had the chip from a working key tapped to the aerial ring and stuffed up behind the speakers, so as it was in sh*t order I steam cleaned the entire vehicle inside and out and blew the immobiliser chip away, lost for ever
Dealer wanted over a £1000 to get it running even after I towed it 30 miles to him, so I got it "de immobilised" at a cost of £137 at the time
I was going to suggest reading ECU using MES diagnostics , but I see yours is a Relay, so Citroen? However although basically the same I think you will find the program will only see Fiats version.
Recently I tried to read a Vauxhall Combi which is identical to a Fiat Doblo1. Multijet but it immediately recognised the different ECU so no joy.
So you may have to check with supplier to confirm what Diagnostic tool to use.
Most key barrels release with ignition key in certain position then a pin pushed in to release barrel , so no violence required, if lucky

 

[stylo2000]

Thanks. Yes it's a Citroen.
I can remove the barrel ok it's just putting it back in, not sure how the push latch thing is supposed to stay down, it catches on its way into the assembly.

I'll try the new key etc, maybe the immobilizer was disabled, soon find out when I can get this barrel back in

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks. Yes it's a Citroen.
I can remove the barrel ok it's just putting it back in, not sure how the push latch thing is supposed to stay down, it catches on its way into the assembly.

I'll try the new key etc, maybe the immobilizer was disabled, soon find out when I can get this barrel back in

Turn the key in the new barrel , in one spot it will allow fitting.

 

[stylo2000]

Turn the key in the new, in one spot it will allow fitting.

I can't see how I can do the hard part but fail to get the ignition part back into the larger assembly

To remove the ignition part which includes the key barrel (lower right corner of earlier pic) you push the latch in with a screwdriver through hole in the assembly (part at top of pic). To replace it, I have the key in the position that allows the latch to be depressed but when I try and slide the ignition/barrel back into the assembly it just doesn't go in, key won't turn as it has to be in the same position for the latch to be depressed - at the moment I'm just trying this with the new one outside of the van so this isn't a compatibility issue apart from my brain compatibility.

For sure I'm, missing something obvious but no videos I look at cover this part....

 

[stylo2000]

OK so finally found the answer! You need to put a screwdriver into the assembly and turn the small catch at the bottom clockwise "on" position then the barrel will go in. It wasn't the push latch stopping it but the small mechanism at the end of the slot the barrel goes into. I thank this youtube video for the clue.

And now all is reassembled I confirm that the non-descript blade key does indeed have a transponder so am seeing if a local locksmith can get the 2 new keys to work with the immobiliser. For me it's OK to just have the "original" key next to the ignition to start the engine but this may not please a future owner who may be suspicious about the van's history.

 

[bugsymike]

OK so finally found the answer! You need to put a screwdriver into the assembly and turn the small catch at the bottom clockwise "on" position then the barrel will go in. It wasn't the push latch stopping it but the small mechanism at the end of the slot the barrel goes into. I thank this youtube video for the clue.

And now all is reassembled I confirm that the non-descript blade key does indeed have a transponder so am seeing if a local locksmith can get the 2 new keys to work with the immobiliser. For me it's OK to just have the "original" key next to the ignition to start the engine but this may not please a future owner who may be suspicious about the van's history.

Re the keys you will probably have to drive the vehicle to them so they can connect their computer to your EOBD port'
They should also be able to cut a set of keys to fit a remote key fob if you have central locking.
I have had this done this with many makes including Fiat.
Sorry , I assumed you would have aligned the lock side of assembly to match the barrel going in.
I have done so many over the years that I take it for granted.

 

[stylo2000]

Sorry , I assumed you would have aligned the lock side of assembly to match the barrel going in.

No worries, it's often the easy bit that we overlook

But, to conclude the story - using my original simple ignition key (no buttons and an embedded transponder) an auto-locksmith was able to read the code from the transponder as it was being read by the aeriel and clone that onto 2 new transponders/keys for me. I was told by another auto-locksmith that this wasn't possible and would cause me serious issues - hard to see how but maybe he had some bad experiences. So far so good - though the padlock light does go off, it comes on again - not sure if this is a problem, maybe will go away....

 

[bugsymike]

No worries, it's often the easy bit that we overlook

But, to conclude the story - using my original simple ignition key (no buttons and an embedded transponder) an auto-locksmith was able to read the code from the transponder as it was being read by the aeriel and clone that onto 2 new transponders/keys for me. I was told by another auto-locksmith that this wasn't possible and would cause me serious issues - hard to see how but maybe he had some bad experiences. So far so good - though the padlock light does go off, it comes on again - not sure if this is a problem, maybe will go away....

The ones I have had done were with the vehicle beside them plugged into his laptop and afterwards I checked each key worked 100% following which I had no issues.
If they just copy the key away from the vehicle it may be a problem.

 

[stylo2000]

If they just copy the key away from the vehicle it may be a problem.

He had some kind of reader held against the ignition as he was starting the van - I imagine picking up the code from the key and then just putting this onto the new keys

 

[bugsymike]

He had some kind of reader held against the ignition as he was starting the van - I imagine picking up the code from the key and then just putting this onto the new keys

Mmm! Time will tell. It may just be a later version . Fingers crossed.

 

[Communicator]

No worries, it's often the easy bit that we overlook

But, to conclude the story - using my original simple ignition key (no buttons and an embedded transponder) an auto-locksmith was able to read the code from the transponder as it was being read by the aeriel and clone that onto 2 new transponders/keys for me. I was told by another auto-locksmith that this wasn't possible and would cause me serious issues - hard to see how but maybe he had some bad experiences. So far so good - though the padlock light does go off, it comes on again - not sure if this is a problem, maybe will go away....

I would not be happy with the highlighted part. I would keep using the new keys, and have your original key immediately available.

 

[stylo2000]

Yes agree, I do keep that with me also just in case.

 

[Reg 65]

Does the transponder have to be there just for starting or is it needed all the time the engine is running?

Just for starting
I know this because (as an anti theft measure) I have a secret switch interrupting a wire from the key barrel coil/aerial to the ECU. When I forget to turn the switch on the engine won't start. But the engine keeps running when I turn the switch off.

 

[bugsymike]

Just for starting
I know this because (as an anti theft measure) I have a secret switch interrupting a wire from the key barrel coil/aerial to the ECU. When I forget to turn the switch on the engine won't start. But the engine keeps running when I turn the switch off.

As @Reg 65 says, once started it should not fail whilst driving, due to the danger that could cause, so factory fit immobilisers are designed with that in mind.