General Dash led and engine performance

[scottyworld]

Cheers Evo, those sizes were spot on. After removing the fuel rail I did another check of the resistance to make sure I was removing the right one, and now 3 of them read under 8ohms(8.4, 2.5, 2.5, 14.1)
Is this to be expected once the rail is off, or do you reckon I've managed to stuff up another two while dismantling the system?
How have you got on with yours? All up and running now?

 

[jug]

they should have the same resistance no matter how or where they are fitted.

to be 100% certain, repeat the test only this time measure each injector's resistance directly across its 2 pins (visible when you remove wiring connector from injector).

 

[evo149]

Cheers Evo, those sizes were spot on. After removing the fuel rail I did another check of the resistance to make sure I was removing the right one, and now 3 of them read under 8ohms(8.4, 2.5, 2.5, 14.1)
Is this to be expected once the rail is off, or do you reckon I've managed to stuff up another two while dismantling the system?
How have you got on with yours? All up and running now?

Yes all fitted and been working now for a couple of weeks. No problems since refitting so far (touch wood).

I think the best way to be sure is to check each injector directly on its terminals. To do that you will need to remove the fuel rail and then the wiring harness. As jug mentioned they should all be about the same resistance.

On my old set two tested at around 15ohms, one at 9.7 and the last one was dead. The new set that i got from a scrap yard were all testing at 14.7ohms when i fitted them.

 

[fiatmaniac]

hi ive been reading this thread and im in the process of checking my injectors on a multipla 1.6 16v same engine, after changing the obvious , plugs , coil , checking leads etc ive still got a missfire , plug sparks on cylinder 1 but no change in engine speed when taking the plug lead off , so now entering the injector syndrome !! can anyone tell me when you check the injectors through a multimeter ie through the connector pictured how do you know which connector is for which injector ? is the connector on the fuel rail numbered so you can know which injector is duff ? any help appreciated gaz

 

[Neverth]

It is the 5-pin plug, iirc the center is positive, which is fed to all injectors, the ones on the sides are returns from the injectors. Just measure them in the ohms range of multimeter, if one is off by quite a lot, either the wiring is broken or the injector is, more likely the injector as they tend to go.

No point of actually knowing which is which from the plug as you need to remove the aluminium lower intake as the fuel rail is attached to it to change even a single injector or check the wiring.

I did this on brava about three years ago on winter in a nice -18C weather and it took couple tries to get the injector-fuelrail O-ring to seat as it was frozen.

 

[Engel10]

how do you check them ?

 

[Brim987]

to measure the resistance of the injectors, disconnect the injector wiring harness connector. this is at the right hand side of the fuel rail when looking in engine bay. inside the connector there are 5 pins. the centre pin is the earth. touch the black terminal of the multimeter on this pin. the other 4 pins are each for an injector. touch the red terminal of the multimeter on each of these pins, making a note of the resistance for each pin.

I know this is an old thread but I'm about to try this on my 1.6sx 100 marea since we can't connect to the ECU to get a code (tried everything..)
The injector light goes on and off an it's running on 2 or 3 cylinders half the time, other times it's fine..

The bit I need to know is the ordering of the pins vs injectors, 1 could be 4 depending which way up the connector is, any thoughts appreciated or I might end up paying to replace the wrong injectors.

Thanks
Steve
P.S
Obviously fiat will want several body parts in exchange for some injectors, anyone have experience with the 20 quid jobs off ebay?
I'm trying to do this on a worn shoestring..

 

[jackwhoo]

I know this is an old thread but I'm about to try this on my 1.6sx 100 marea since we can't connect to the ECU to get a code (tried everything..)
The injector light goes on and off an it's running on 2 or 3 cylinders half the time, other times it's fine..

The bit I need to know is the ordering of the pins vs injectors, 1 could be 4 depending which way up the connector is, any thoughts appreciated or I might end up paying to replace the wrong injectors.

Thanks
Steve
P.S
Obviously fiat will want several body parts in exchange for some injectors, anyone have experience with the 20 quid jobs off ebay?
I'm trying to do this on a worn shoestring..

Hi , the injector light is actually an engine malfunction indicator light MIL

It does not mean there is a problem with injectors.

Flashing usually indicates misfiring - which matches your symptoms.

Reading the stored fault code/s some one on here may be able to help . What year car , what type of obd connector?


Otherwise check basics - spark plus (condition/age) ht leads(they fail over time)

Good luck

 

[puntodeltathema]

What year is your Marea?

If it is pre-EOBD (i.e. 1581 rather than 1596cc) with the three-pin system, diagnostic connection can be a bit hit and miss - let us know what setup you are using including baud rates etc....

Might be worth getting a cheap aftermarket coil pack though to eliminate that.

Nick

 

[Neverth]

If you measure one of the injectors to be bad, you need to take the intake off the head anyway to access the injectors. So then measure the injectors again when they are out. If you know the pin that has the wrong resistance, you can just write it down and then buzz it out with multimeter once the intake is out. Misfire might also be coil/plugs. I had the coil on my brava split over time (you could clearly see the cracks in it) so I just grabbed one second had from scrapper and it worked fine after it.

Replacing the injectors is not bad, rad fan out (I just dropped it down on the bottom tray) and then the lower intake fits out. Check that the injector O-rings are not bad, I had to do this in winter and they were too hard to install, nothing trip to sauna didn't fix.

If your upper intake is metal, then multiecuscan free version does not read it, if it is plastic it should read it fine. For FES/MES I haven't had luck with other than old XP laptop and KKL cable which works fine so I've kept using it. Injector light on dash means it is the pre-obd, 3-pin plug should be near the fusebox on left front strut mount (there might be couple plugs for different systems).

 

[Brim987]

Fiat ePer systems tells me its a 1Q-Marea BZ Gamma 1999-2002.
(All I know is It's a 1999 (December) 1.6sx 100.)

I have multiecuscan and it managed to get me an ABS fault code from one of the 3 pin connectors, nothing from the other 3 pin connector
also on the fuse box. (I don't know why there's two connectors, one engine, one abs maybe?)
Fiat dealership said it's too old, not a chance, took it to 3 garages with different diagnostics, ranging from a flash tablet to
a multi thousand pound system, nothing worked.

re: If your upper intake is metal
Could you elaborate on that please?, I'm no mechanic, just flailing about try to sort this for my son...

It's had a new official coil pack/plugs etc. The injector light has been getting more frequent for about a year and it seems to be running on three almost all the time now regardless of the light. It *seems* ok when first pulling off just for 30 secs. (not long enough to be temp sensor related methinks...?)

I measured the resistances of the injectors and 3 are 14.3 ohms or thereabouts, the last one is inconsistent, seems to be 22-27.
It's at the end not sure if that's 1 or 4 but it looks like a suspect to me.

For amusement, I rang Fiat for a price on a new injector (Part 71718998) - 373 quid please.

As ever, any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks
Steve

 

[Neverth]

Metal intake: the part after throttle body that splits into the intake runners. Google "fiat brava 1.6 engine" and you should see some with cast intake with the "FIAT 16v logo" and others out of black plastic. You said 99 so it is probably the plastic one unless someone really fudged the year.

I just got used injector, but that was years ago. Unplug lambda if that has issues and it is flooding a plug? Sounds like the injector if you are sure it is running on three. Atleast on mine the injection system light was on all the time once it fully broke and diagnostics gave the cylinder for it where it was gone. Before that the injector was on/off.

Experience getting MES to communicate sounds about the same as I had with windows 8.1, hence the old XP laptop on life support.

 

[puntodeltathema]

Just reproducing some advice here I found on a VW site which helped me connect MES (on a modernish laptop) to a couple of 90s Fiats with a KKL (VAG) interface (are you using one of those?) - may also apply to ELM (after 1998, Bravo/Brava/Marea's can use either) though I haven't had any issue connecting to post-98 Bravo/Bravos with ELM:

"I dropped the baud rate of the com port in device manager to 2400 and also the send receive speed to 128(!) to get a response , together with latency at 2ms( recommended by Ross tech site). Once it started working again I ramped up the send receive speeds again to 2048..."

(In other words - KKL at least is quite sensitive to settings so worth having a play around in your computer's "devices" settings once you have the interface connected).

Note the injectors were generically coded IWP 064 (with a beige collar) and I think are (or were) available on the aftermarket (corresponds with Fiat OE number 71718998). They are rated at 186 cc/min.

However, I gather IWP 001 and IWP 109 injectors are interchangeable (reading back some notes I made about a decade ago when faced with a similar issue).

Nick

 

[Brim987]

Metal intake: the part after throttle body that splits into the intake runners. Google "fiat brava 1.6 engine" and you should see some with cast intake with the "FIAT 16v logo" and others out of black plastic. You said 99 so it is probably the plastic one unless someone really fudged the year.

I just got used injector, but that was years ago. Unplug lambda if that has issues and it is flooding a plug? Sounds like the injector if you are sure it is running on three. Atleast on mine the injection system light was on all the time once it fully broke and diagnostics gave the cylinder for it where it was gone. Before that the injector was on/off.

Experience getting MES to communicate sounds about the same as I had with windows 8.1, hence the old XP laptop on life support.

OK, thanks for that. Mine is plastic then. No lambda issues (no engine management light anyway).
The car runs great for 15/30 seconds or so then the injector light flashes on and the power drops right off, and it's often lumpy (on 3?).
The injector light never stays on permanently.
I found a place doing recon injectors for 45 quid each, so a set of 4 might be the last hail mary try at fixing it.
Not being able to get a code out of the ECU is a killer.

Steve

 

[Brim987]

Just reproducing some advice here I found on a VW site which helped me connect MES (on a modernish laptop) to a couple of 90s Fiats with a KKL (VAG) interface (are you using one of those?) - may also apply to ELM (after 1998, Bravo/Brava/Marea's can use either) though I haven't had any issue connecting to post-98 Bravo/Bravos with ELM:

"I dropped the baud rate of the com port in device manager to 2400 and also the send receive speed to 128(!) to get a response , together with latency at 2ms( recommended by Ross tech site). Once it started working again I ramped up the send receive speeds again to 2048..."

(In other words - KKL at least is quite sensitive to settings so worth having a play around in your computer's "devices" settings once you have the interface connected).

Note the injectors were generically coded IWP 064 (with a beige collar) and I think are (or were) available on the aftermarket (corresponds with Fiat OE number 71718998). They are rated at 186 cc/min.

However, I gather IWP 001 and IWP 109 injectors are interchangeable (reading back some notes I made about a decade ago when faced with a similar issue).

Nick

re: I gather IWP 001 and IWP 109 injectors are interchangeable

I wonder of IWP001 and IWP064 are interchangeable (as a set)? (4 hole vs 2 hole I think).

If I have a MK2 then I suspect I currently have 2 hole, which is a pain since I found a set of new 4 holes for a reasonable price.
Are magnetti marelli any good?

Yes I have the KKL inteface and 3 pin convertor, I did try playing with the baud settings in the app, but not in the device settings so I'll try that.
I did mange to get an ABS code from one of the 3 pin ports though (eventually), I don't even know which of the two 3 pin ports is the ECU.

Any sane person would give up on it, but my autistic son adores this car more than life (Grandad had one...) so I'm up for anything.
Local garages just think I'm mad. Perhaps so.

Steve

 

[Brim987]

Just reproducing some advice here I found on a VW site which helped me connect MES (on a modernish laptop) to a couple of 90s Fiats with a KKL (VAG) interface (are you using one of those?) - may also apply to ELM (after 1998, Bravo/Brava/Marea's can use either) though I haven't had any issue connecting to post-98 Bravo/Bravos with ELM:

"I dropped the baud rate of the com port in device manager to 2400 and also the send receive speed to 128(!) to get a response , together with latency at 2ms( recommended by Ross tech site). Once it started working again I ramped up the send receive speeds again to 2048..."

(In other words - KKL at least is quite sensitive to settings so worth having a play around in your computer's "devices" settings once you have the interface connected).

Note the injectors were generically coded IWP 064 (with a beige collar) and I think are (or were) available on the aftermarket (corresponds with Fiat OE number 71718998). They are rated at 186 cc/min.

However, I gather IWP 001 and IWP 109 injectors are interchangeable (reading back some notes I made about a decade ago when faced with a similar issue).

Nick

Nick,

OMG, I got a code... THANK YOU!!!! This has defeated everyone, even with multi thousand pound systems.

It came up as Magnetti Marelli 1AQ 49F Injection, I took a picture of the codes - unfortunately it doesn't mean a lot to me.
I'll post it elsewhere here to see if anyone can help diagnose it. (attached here also)

A flicker of life from Marea, yes yes yes. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve

 

[puntodeltathema]

Excellent! - well I think that tells you which injector. No. 1 is nearest the timing belt end. The knock sensor codes could be caused by the injector fault rather than pointing to a separate failure. Not sure about the atmo pressure and air temp sensor codes - may be random or an old fault but in any event these both in practice relate to the combined MAP sensor which is easy and (should be) cheap to change if the fault persists (it's at the back of the black plastic intake manifold section). If you succeed in connecting again, try clearing the codes and see what comes back.

I think though replacing no.1 injector is the obvious way forward.

Marelli injectors are original equipment. Are they any good? Well.... I think the injectors are OK; the issue with (at least some versions of) the IAW 49F system is that the voltages weren't very well controlled which tends to fry the injectors slowly over time....but Marelli made the wider system, so...

I suspect you would get away with putting in a single four-hole injector (it's not the holes so much as the flow rate) though if you have the rail off and they are cheap then replacing all four would be an option. I think the 109's may be two-hole if you can find any?

Nick

 

[Brim987]

Excellent! - well I think that tells you which injector. No. 1 is nearest the timing belt end. The knock sensor codes could be caused by the injector fault rather than pointing to a separate failure. Not sure about the atmo pressure and air temp sensor codes - may be random or an old fault but in any event these both in practice relate to the combined MAP sensor which is easy and (should be) cheap to change if the fault persists (it's at the back of the black plastic intake manifold section). If you succeed in connecting again, try clearing the codes and see what comes back.

I think though replacing no.1 injector is the obvious way forward.

Marelli injectors are original equipment. Are they any good? Well.... I think the injectors are OK; the issue with (at least some versions of) the IAW 49F system is that the voltages weren't very well controlled which tends to fry the injectors slowly over time....but Marelli made the wider system, so...

I suspect you would get away with putting in a single four-hole injector (it's not the holes so much as the flow rate) though if you have the rail off and they are cheap then replacing all four would be an option. I think the 109's may be two-hole if you can find any?

Nick

Nick, thanks for the info, I can't tell you how much it's appreciated.

We've now got a fighting chance of saving the old girl.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Neverth]

Map is quite cheap to also change. It is in the intake splitter near the firewall. Cleaned mine years ago as it was full of oily residue, but it was not the issue I had back then. Rubber bellow on intake had started to fail so I just covered it with self vulcanizing tape.

 

[Brim987]

OK, thanks for the info.

I cleared the codes and the only one to come back so far is the injector, so I'll get that changed and go from there.


Steve