General Blue/Red Key Confusion

[cgarr04]

Hi All,

Firstly, I'm a new 'R' driver with 2 months experience under my belt and decided to go with a 5dr punto for my first car rather than a boy racer corsa etc, for obvious reasons. I would just like to say that this is a great forum which has really helped me get familiar with my car and understand how things work, so thanks to everyone involved for your/their valuable contribution.

Anyway, my query:

I've got a late 2002 mk2 punto active 8v. When I bought it, I was given 3 keys in total:- One red, and two blue, and also a (additonal blue) key for the passenger airbag (which is similar to a broken key) they are as follows:

Red #1 (JMA branded) = Ignition
Blue #1 (JMA branded) = Petrol cap
Blue #2 (Fiat branded) = Boot
Blue #3 (Fiat branded 'quater key') = Passener Airbag

Q1: I was under the impression that the red 'master' keys only applied to MK1 models and was done away with on the mk2. But, when I was handed this during purchase I thought it could only be a good thing, as I'm aware it can be very expensive to get a new mk1 key cut if you don't have the master. Therefore, why do I have a red key, and why is it not Fiat branded?

Q2: Within a week of having the car, the CODE light came on whilst the car was in motion and stayed on for a good 3/4's of a day whilst the car was in use and the ignition was cycled several times throughout the day. The code light was then off during startup the following morning and since then (7 weeks) it hasn't returned. Why did the code light display originally - is this some sort of frequent check/authentication for the imobiliser chip?

Q3: If the red is the 'master key' and I lose this, I assume i'm a very bad situation considering I don't have a spare. Therefore, can I clone this key quite cheaply even though it isn't FIAT branded? If so, should I also get the petrol cap and boot keys cloned too considering the red key doesn't open them?

Q4: The red key only opens the doors and ignition. I was under the impression that the red/master key opened the boot, doors, ignition (not sure about the petrol cap). Again, if the red key is the 'master key', why doesn't it open the boot?

Q5: When I start the car, the passenger airbag light flashes amber maybe 6 times in about 4 seconds then goes out and remains out. The passenger airbag switch is set to "on" however the "quarter key" provided doesn't turn it to the off position. I am correct in thinking that the passenger airbag is possibly defective, considering that it's not a major issue/requirement and I can't change it to the 'off' position to see what effect this has on the flashing light?

Sorry if some of these questions are/seem silly, but this car seems to differ from what i'm reading on the net.

Thanks in advance.

Colum.

 

[Eklipze3k]

Trying to answer the questions in order:

Q1: Your car uses a Code2 system, which doesn't have a red/master key. The ones that you have which are not Fiat branded are copies.

Q2: Which key produces the CODE light issue? I'll bet it's one of the copies. They'll be fine for opening and closing the doors but will soon desync from the coding system in the car if they are just a clone of one of the original keys.

Q3: As above, the red key is a clone.

Q4: As above

Q5: Not sure on this one, can you turn the airbag to 'Off' using one of the original keys?

Edit: Just re-read some more of this, it sounds like your petrol cap is aftermarket and possibly the ignition/ECU have been changed which is why certain keys seem to have specific purposes. In an ideal world, the original FIAT key will do everything - doors, boot, ignition, petrol cap and airbag.

 

[cgarr04]

Thanks for the prompt response, however now i'm a little worried! I seen the red key and thought to myself that's a good thing but now it seems quite the opposite and from what you've stated i'll soon enough i'll not be able to start the car with the red key!

I only have one key which starts the ignition and that is the RED key, which as you've said is a copy. Therefore, can I copy this easily and in a cost effective way?

The red key produced the code light when i'd only had the car 5 days or so and as stated above it's the only key which starts the ignition. If this key is a copy and will soon desync should it not have done so when the code light was on? Isn't that like a re-sync between the key and ecu?

When can I expect the key to desync? Is there a specific time period?

In summary, What can I do to prevent the red key desyncing and how much would it cost to get another (spare) copy of the key?

I only paid 850 for the car so if eventually the key de-sync's will I need the ecu reprogrammed to a new key set and how much will it cost?

Re: Q5. The airbag lock isn't actually like a lock which you can slot a key into. The key itself only has the tip of the metal showing from the housing and resembles a key that has been broken in a lock, so it's actually more difficult to attempt to turn it with an alternative (i.e the red) key, if that makes sense.


Look forward to your reponse.

Thanks,
C

 

[Eklipze3k]

I admit I'm not au fait with the whole reasoning behind the keys desyncing so wouldn't like to put a time frame on it. In the long run the simplest solution would be to get ECU, ignition barrel, keys and locks from another car and swap them all over.

With regards the airbag 'switch' lets call it, as I say it *should* be operated by the original key, the problem is that you have 2 different FIAT keys, neither of which (it would seem) are original!

 

[cgarr04]

Is it really worth replacing the ecu, barrell and keys and locks from another car considering I only paid 850 for it? I was only intending on keeping the car for a year and selling it on!

It looks as if the ignition barell may have been replaced as the casing is somewhat lose and the plastic screw to the right (below the coin holder) holding the dash in place is also loose, so this would suggest that some work has been done there previously I guess.

The key for the boot, only opens the boot and nothing else, so would that suggest that the ignition and door locks have already been replaced? As you said, the FIAT key should do everything, but in my case it only does the boot and nothing else. So, would that indicate that the ecu/ignition and door locks have already been replaced? But then I ask myself why would one replace the ecu+ignition/door locks if they previiously had an original fiat key - which should open everything as you say?

The cutting for the fiat branded boot key is similar but not identical to the JMA branded ignition key, which to me, further suggests that the ignition barell has already been replaced?

I think something isn't quite adding up here.

 

[Eklipze3k]

That's a question I can't answer, lol, people are very strange. It could be that the boot has also been replaced but then it begs the question - how much of the original car is actually left?

At the end of the day, if you can drive the car without any major issue and you're only planning to keep it a year I wouldn't panic too much. You may have occasional issues starting with that CODE issue, but it should work eventually.

If you do plan to keep though, swapping the full set from a donor with known working keys, etc would be your best option.

 

[cgarr04]

Thanks again for the information. If anyone else can offer further advice on this i'd be extremely grateful.

I'd probably agree with you that the boot has been replaced, but it still makes no sense to me why the code light came on for a day then went off and has remained off for almost two months and i've put 1000 miles on the car and used the 'copied' red key every time i've drove it (obviously). I'd imagine the ecu would request the original key more often than two months, would it not? If not, is it a case of it happening any day now and me getting stranded somewhere, or is it just pot luck?

Is it possible that the immobiliser chip on the original fiat key could be bypassed with an alternative igniton barrell which would mean that this red JMA branded key could actually be the 'master key' for that barell, if it was indeed swapped out? (Sorry if that makes no sense at all, but i'm sure you know what I mean.)

Also, if it's only a matter of time before the key causes CODE issues which prevent the car from starting, then I don't want to alternate between another cloned key as that is likely to encourage the problem, so we can forget that.

There's a huge spard yard just up the street from me and I went there to get a heater resistor recently and I must have seen atleast 20 mk2 punto's there so getting any replacement parts shouldn't be too costly or difficult. However, I have virtually no knowledge of car repairs so doing anything myself isn't really an option, I assume. The tax is due for renewal now and MOT is up in november, so i'm now considering taxing it for a year and selling it. From what i've read getting around this problem (more so with mk1 models) is probably around half the price of the car (£300-400).

If the car reaches the point where it refuses to start with the jma branded red key, how much would you say we're talking for a ignition, ecu and door locks, including labour?

Thanks again for all the advice.

**EDIT**:

I've just got home from work and had a look at what I 'thought' was the 'broken' airbag key. I notice that key has an 'antenna' symbol on it and the number '2' below it and on the opposite side of the metal there is a code prefix similar to A1234. The FIAT boot key also has this symbol on it, but with different numbers on the back.

Could this actually be the original broken master key? Here's a picture of the keys: https://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/showfull.php?photo=79238

Thanks again!

 

[interlock]

Your car wasn't supplied with a red key. The airbag key is full length. It sounds like the discussion above is correct, you have a mix of locks from two or more cars... Don't panic. It is perfectly possible to cut/clone you another key if you want, trust me, I'm a locksmith.
So:
punto mk 2.......1999w- 2006
problem............you only have one blue/working key?
if the key you have has a ( 1) marked on it you can go and get another one with no problem.dont go to fiat!!! Too costly.
if the only key you have has a ( 2) on it, go to an auto locksmith or local cobblers, who will order a key from Italy, say 4 days, he will then hook his computer to the car and reprogramme the new key, just as fiat would do, and all is well. They can also cut you a key from the number stamped on the key. Their software will automatically tell the cutter what pattern the key is.

This from a Fiat dealer in Northampton's website -

"Some Fiat cars are supplied with one red key and two blue keys.
Blue keys contain a coded radio transmitter which communicates with the ignition system and the engine immobiliser,
they are part of the Fiat security system that protects the car. The red key is the master key which is unique to the car's ignition system.
The red key is required to create replacement blue keys, in the event of their loss.
The red key cannot be replaced without replacing a substantial part of the cars ignition system, always keep the red key secure and use the blue keys for every-day use.

More recent Fiat models have a "CODE 2" system that does not feature a red key.
Replacement keys are obtainable from Rockingham Cars already coded.The V5 registration document and other ID are required to supply a new key for this
system to ensure security."

Best of luck.
Jerry

 

[cgarr04]

Wow, thanks for the reply, that is great info!

I don't have the the key with the (1) marked on it but I have the key with the (2) marked on it, albeit broken, but the code is visible on the bottom of the key! See pic above.

So to clarify, all I need to do is bring the broken (2) key to an auto locksmith and they can make a clone from the number stamped on the key?

I also just remembered that I have an insurance keychain which covers the car up to £1500 if I lose the keys and all keys on the chain are coverered so all is not lost, but I would still like a spare key if it's cheap enough.

 

[interlock]

JMA are perfectly good Spanish made key's. I don't have an auto catalogue here otherwise I would give you the blank number you need. Go to a locksmith (not a cobbler! or ironmonger) and they should be able to sort you out with copies of all your keys, be aware that auto locksmiths are not cheap, the software and keycutters they use costs £££thousands, but they will cost a lot less than FIAT. Plead student poverty and an old car!

 

[cgarr04]

What is a rought figure to replace all the locks on the car considering there is a seperate key for each the igniton, fuel cap and boot?

I think i'm just going to risk running it on the red JMA key, but i'd like to know if there is any sort of pattern to the transmitter, so i know if the car is not going to start tomorrow, or 3 months later.

It's hard to believe that a set of keys can be so complicated!

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[DaveMcT]

Its really not complicated. The Mk2 Punto was supplied from new with blue keys which fitted everything on the car. Any keys that unlock everything are likely to be the original(s). If none fit everything then its likely the ignition lock and/or the ECU have been changed.

Fiats link the body computer (immobiliser), engine ECU and ignition key into a closed set. Change one component from another car and the system stops working.Keys can be cloned but they are not always reliable.

If the ignition key gets lost the key insurance should cover replacement costs including any ECU programming. I have a similar policy (not needed it thankfully). I checked with them that they would cover the full costs in the case of a Fiat. They will.

 

[paul12345]

cheapest way.. just get a complete lockset/ecu etc with 2 keys and fit yourself, then sell what you've got.

 

[jk2001]

Is it possible to buy cheap CODE2 key and re-program it myself so as it contains personalization data?

 

[paul12345]

Is it possible to buy cheap CODE2 key and re-program it myself so as it contains personalization data?

No you can't