General BEWARE Costly repairs!!!!!

[N&J]

Hi,
we have a 2015 Panda Easy which we bought with less than 5,000 miles on the clock. Just as it came out of warranty from a car supermarket the ESC and steering light warning came on and the power steering and ASR became inoperative. The Green Flag breakdown man tested it and revealed an error code STEERING MODULE NOT PRESENT. After disconnecting the battery and shorting out the ecu - the whole thing reset and was fine for a few days.
However, the problem reoccurred particularly when the car was cold and the outside temperature was below about 10 degrees. After driving for 10 - 15 mins, one switched off (at traffic lights for example) and then restarted, the problem rectified itself. My local garage could find nothing wrong so a trip to the stealership was my only option. After 2 days of diagnostics (@£90 per day) they declared a software update would cure the issue - body control module. This worked - for a day. After another day investigation, they declared that it needed a new steering column at a fitted cost of a whopping £1890!.
I was aghast at this diagnosis, on such a young car and contacted FIAT customer services who passed it on to HQ in Italy. I was told that as the car was out of warranty, they could not help me. I complained further and suggested that this was a safety issue and should be addressed with a recall - all to no avail.
My wife and I discussed getting rid of the car, but selling on with this intermittent problem seemed wrong to subject anyone else to. So we were forced to pay the money to get it fixed. I demanded the old part back and it seems to be the entire steering head including the rake adjuster. I understand from some internet digging that some Punto's have suffered from this, there was a BBC Watchdog programme featuring this issue. I thought I'd post this to warn all FIAT owners and in the hope that anyone else who has this problem gets in touch to try to force FIAT to take responsibility for this.

If you've anything to add, please lert me have your thoughts.....

 

[gar074]

I feel your pain. I know this was a common problem on Puntos, and on some of the previous-model Pandas and early 500s, but I haven't heard of it affecting the current Panda before.

It's shocking, given that it affects the steering without any warning, that Fiat haven't accepted that it is a safety issue.

 

[Wee Smurf]

As an older Panda owner, I'm just wondering if the car had been sat for a while and the battery was low. The power-steering on Pandas being electrically assisted are particularly sensitive to a bad battery. Several of us with older Pandas have sorted this issue out with a new battery. With some others, it was the sensor.

 

[A3jeroen]

:yeahthat:
Probably sorted with a new battery. Mine needed a new sensor, but was significantly cheaper than €1895...

gr J

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I agree - more than likely 'just' a new battery needed. Look back across this forum and you'll see reports of all number of 'random errors', warning lights, power steering not available etc... all caused by low voltage.

Like all modern cars, the Panda has sensors monitoring everything, and basically what these look for is the wrong voltage being detected. This is fine when the battery is in good health. But if the battery is weak, then all the voltages are low, leading to 'errors' being reported that are not really there. This is most likely to happen in cold weather, as a battery's ability to hold charge drops away rapidly in the cold. As already explained above, the power steering is electric, and puts a big drain on the electrics. Not normally an issue, unless the battery is already suffering. I don't believe the dealer. Change the battery (about £80, or about £200 if you have stop/start as different battery type), and get the codes cleared. Dealers really should know to cure the cause, not 'just' believe the computer diagnosis. But they don't seem to be able to do that anymore...
[edit: re-read to see you already have had new steering gear fitted] - did it make the problem go away? Or, has the warmer weather come to the aid of the battery and 'cured' the root cause of the issue?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I absolutely agree with the advice given above. A 2015 Panda with just 5,000 miles on it needing a new steering column has to be most unlikely, not absolutely impossible I suppose - but most unlikely.

Electric power steering systems pull large currents when working (60 to 80 amp fuses are common - you can haul a LOT of electricity through an 80 amp fuse). This will rapidly catch out a borderline battery and seems to be a common problem with the Panda (which does not have a very large capacity battery even when new). You can check it out yourself with a simple voltmeter connected across the battery terminals. A fully charged lead acid battery, in good condition, should be somewhere around 12.5 or more volts. With the engine running, and so the alternator charging, you should be seeing somewhere around 13.5 to 14.5, or slightly more, volts showing. Now turn the steering one way then the other a few times and see what the battery voltage is doing. If it drops below about 11.5 volts you've probably got battery problems.

The other strong contender is a poor earth. A poor earth (better to think of it as a high resistance connection) will limit the ability of electricity to flow in the circuit. Especially circuits which pull high currents! In this case, because the current can't flow, you will not see the battery voltage dropping even if the battery is not in very good condition because the circuit is compromised by the high resistance.

When using a voltmeter in this way you need to connect directly to the lead battery terminals themselves. After all, it could be a poor connection at the battery terminal clamp which is the problem (although then you might expect starter motor problems as it is also a high current consumer?). If you decide you want to check what's happening when actually driving PLEASE take an observer with you (Mrs Jock is getting good at "observing") to watch the meter. Trying to do it yourself is not recommended! The earth lead from the gearbox casing to the Near Side (passenger side) chassis box section is very exposed and was badly corroded on mine - maybe worth a check anyway although I don't think it's part of the power steering power pathway?

If either our Panda or my boy's Punto ever needs a column I've decided I will be approaching Western Power Steering to rebuild my unit. By the way I think they offer a free check - might be the best solution for you if you are within driving distance of them in Bristol? There are several companies doing rebuilt electric steering units and most claim to use uprated components, offer solutions to the need for recoding when the new unit is installed and offer lifetime warranties. Prices are nowhere near what you are looking at with your quote. My local small Fiat independent garage says he always uses rebuilt units not "genuine Fiat" from the main dealer.

What ever it turns out to be do keep us updated won't you. With a bit of luck this may not be as bad as it looks just now. I wish you good luck anyway. Main Dealers do tend to be very believing of what their (expensive to justify) diagnostic machines tell them and I think this dulls their ability to be imaginative and "think outside the box". Spend some time tracking down a well recommended independent Fiat (or Italian car) specialist - you won't regret it.

Sorry, just realized you bought it with 5,000 miles on it. So what's the mileage now? By the way, I do take on board that fitting the new column seems to have "sorted" it - but I'm sceptical that that was truly the problem.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Oh dear, 'fraid I went off a bit "premature" with this. I only half took in the original post before starting to reply. Took it as a call for advice - now realize it's a fait accomplis, (or could it be a Fiat accomplis?) the job was done! Anyway sincere condolences to the OP, and hope these posts have been helpful to someone. As you have the old unit it would be interesting to know what Western could tell you?

 

[N&J]

Thanks for all the feedback and advice - I remember why I love this forum. I had 3 Multipla's and almost lived on here but I sold the last one 3 years ago so it's been a while.
Yes, I changed the battery for a good quality brand just in case but it did not cure the issue. It would be interesting to send the old unit for investigation, but naturally I don't want to spend any more - I wonder if it was a poor earth connection - but why affected by heat?
The mileage is now 11,000k but the problem first started at 9,800k ish

Nick

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for all the feedback and advice - I remember why I love this forum. I had 3 Multipla's and almost lived on here but I sold the last one 3 years ago so it's been a while.
Yes, I changed the battery for a good quality brand just in case but it did not cure the issue. It would be interesting to send the old unit for investigation, but naturally I don't want to spend any more - I wonder if it was a poor earth connection - but why affected by heat?
The mileage is now 11,000k but the problem first started at 9,800k ish

Nick

Thanks for the update. Glad it seems to be A-OK now. Suppose you'll never know if it was an earth problem because it will have been disturbed during the work.
All the best
Jock

 

[Al D]

Issue you've found one that I believe is rare for the model. Could the replacement last the remainder of the car's life? Hopefully. Is there a year's warranty on the repair? I would argue if it doesn't go again it should be fine. Maybe in 2 years time the trade in value may be the cost of the repair. If it went again, trade in at first sign of failure or have it refurbished. It would be a shame to have a supermini with minor risk of corrosion and engine life of 200k condemned by a steering column fault. One day the manufacturer will want us all to buy another of course. At times like this it's easy to understand why new cars on 23 month PCP's work so well. You hand the car back and someone else's problem.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Issue you've found one that I believe is rare for the model. Could the replacement last the remainder of the car's life? Hopefully. Is there a year's warranty on the repair? I would argue if it doesn't go again it should be fine. Maybe in 2 years time the trade in value may be the cost of the repair. If it went again, trade in at first sign of failure or have it refurbished. It would be a shame to have a supermini with minor risk of corrosion and engine life of 200k condemned by a steering column fault. One day the manufacturer will want us all to buy another of course. At times like this it's easy to understand why new cars on 23 month PCP's work so well. You hand the car back and someone else's problem.

I am getting the 125000 mile five year warranty plan with the new one and it will likely be replaced the day that expires! Sorry to hear of the problems Al. My current car diagnosed as OK now has a very nasty layer of slime over the whole of everything you can see in the top of the engine.... But of course they are all like that and its OK... The Panda thing still has me though so hence another one has been chosen. Many more tails like this and will cancel the order and they can keep, the deposit. Fiat should be ashamed to charge anyone 1 fifth of the cost of the car for any repair after only 5000 miles. The basic cost of the new 4x4 before VAT is £9670 so 2000 for a repair is a bloody outrage.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Issue you've found one that I believe is rare for the model. Could the replacement last the remainder of the car's life? Hopefully. Is there a year's warranty on the repair? I would argue if it doesn't go again it should be fine. Maybe in 2 years time the trade in value may be the cost of the repair. If it went again, trade in at first sign of failure or have it refurbished. It would be a shame to have a supermini with minor risk of corrosion and engine life of 200k condemned by a steering column fault. One day the manufacturer will want us all to buy another of course. At times like this it's easy to understand why new cars on 23 month PCP's work so well. You hand the car back and someone else's problem.

I am getting the 125000 mile five year warranty plan with the new one and it will likely be replaced the day that expires! Sorry to hear of the problems Al. My current car diagnosed as OK now has a very nasty layer of slime over the whole of everything you can see in the top of the engine.... But of course they are all like that and its OK... The Panda thing still has me though so hence another one has been chosen. Many more tails like this and will cancel the order and they can keep, the deposit. Fiat should be ashamed to charge anyone 1 fifth of the cost of the car for any repair after only 5000 miles. The basic cost of the new 4x4 before VAT is £9670 so 2000 for a repair is a bloody outrage. I shall delight in them paying for such failures on the new car should I be unlucky enough to experience anything similar.

 

[Punto MC]

I am getting the 125000 mile five year warranty plan with the new one and it will likely be replaced the day that expires! Sorry to hear of the problems Al. My current car diagnosed as OK now has a very nasty layer of slime over the whole of everything you can see in the top of the engine.... But of course they are all like that and its OK... The Panda thing still has me though so hence another one has been chosen. Many more tails like this and will cancel the order and they can keep, the deposit. Fiat should be ashamed to charge anyone 1 fifth of the cost of the car for any repair after only 5000 miles. The basic cost of the new 4x4 before VAT is £9670 so 2000 for a repair is a bloody outrage. I shall delight in them paying for such failures on the new car should I be unlucky enough to experience anything similar.

What's the details of the new one you are getting?

 

[The Panda Nut]

What's the details of the new one you are getting?

Its a Waze 4x4 with a few extras topping off at £13100 including the dreaded VAT. The basic cost of the car is 12265. The dealer said they might still be able to squeeze customers into the offer that ended at the end of Feb. I am going for climate control, electric mirrors, height adjustable drivers seat, and a leather steering wheel in white because I am not paying them for paint that costs no more than the white stuff. My tow bar will still fit from a standard 4x4 and I have red mirror covers and sill protectors waiting for the car already. With the extended warranty at £375 approx.

My biggest dread is the poor performance until it gets to 4000 miles/ I have ordered the natty 4x4 logo'd hub caps so hope they will fit the wheels on this car. £15 each. These are available to order from Mangoletsi Fiat in Knutsford. They also seem to have the cheapest sill protectors on sale at present.

 

[Punto MC]

Sounds great!


Yeah the Waze 4x4 seems to be a cheap way of getting a Cross-Lite doesn't it.


Or even not Lite with your increased spec.


I'll have to google those hub caps, can't picture what they look like.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

... I have ordered the natty 4x4 logo'd hub caps so hope they will fit the wheels on this car. £15 each... .

I suspect you mean the covers that are used on the 4x4 when sold in Europe, where alloy wheels are an extra-cost option, and black-painted steel wheels are standard. They have a 4x4 'hub cap' on them - see here: https://www.fiat.it/panda/panda-4x4 and a slightly bigger view here: https://www.fiat.it/content/dam/fiat/it/models/cross/panda/panda_4x4/1200/interni/1/cerchi.jpg

If so, rather doubt they will fit the black finished alloy wheels of the Waze version?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I suspect you mean the covers that are used on the 4x4 when sold in Europe, where alloy wheels are an extra-cost option, and black-painted steel wheels are standard. They have a 4x4 'hub cap' on them - see here: https://www.fiat.it/panda/panda-4x4 and a slightly bigger view here: https://www.fiat.it/content/dam/fiat/it/models/cross/panda/panda_4x4/1200/interni/1/cerchi.jpg

If so, rather doubt they will fit the black finished alloy wheels of the Waze version?

Hmm. Suits you sir!

 

[The Panda Nut]

I suspect you mean the covers that are used on the 4x4 when sold in Europe, where alloy wheels are an extra-cost option, and black-painted steel wheels are standard. They have a 4x4 'hub cap' on them - see here: https://www.fiat.it/panda/panda-4x4 and a slightly bigger view here: https://www.fiat.it/content/dam/fiat/it/models/cross/panda/panda_4x4/1200/interni/1/cerchi.jpg

If so, rather doubt they will fit the black finished alloy wheels of the Waze version?

Waze is Fiat for Cheap. The wheels are steel with plastic trims so from what you say the 4x4 centres should fit hooray. Might make a naff look a little better. I really don't like black wheels but am too mean to spend on something better.... Maybe I'll weaken if the car ever arrives. Dealer has already slipped import duty increases into the conversation. This I am afraid will see me pull out instantly which would be a shame.

 

[Al D]

The Panda Nut I've not had steering column issue myself on any Panda, but I did have issue on a Punto Multijet, partially failed at end of 46 mile motorway journey. Covered under a Gold Warranty supplied by the main dealer. Think took 6 weeks to sort in the end. If my TA 4x4 suffered with the same, that's a third of it's trade in value. If I lived in the sunny climbs where you are, I'd have an MX5! But standard of the roads and standing water after relatively short amount of time suggests I'm better off sticking. The Orange Triangle Of Doom is regularly on when cold and warm. Friend doing pollen filter again next weekend. And mechanic doing Oil change and MOT next month.

 

[The Panda Nut]

The Panda Nut I've not had steering column issue myself on any Panda, but I did have issue on a Punto Multijet, partially failed at end of 46 mile motorway journey. Covered under a Gold Warranty supplied by the main dealer. Think took 6 weeks to sort in the end. If my TA 4x4 suffered with the same, that's a third of it's trade in value. If I lived in the sunny climbs where you are, I'd have an MX5! But standard of the roads and standing water after relatively short amount of time suggests I'm better off sticking. The Orange Triangle Of Doom is regularly on when cold and warm. Friend doing pollen filter again next weekend. And mechanic doing Oil change and MOT next month.

The trouble here is there is no road drainage as its so flat. Rain = flooded roads to a silly extent and we have the highest amount of 'unmade' roads of any county in the UK. Just bitumen and gravel on the old flint roads so when it floods the roads disintegrate. Its my excuse for the 4x4. The stronger running gear also helps when daft old men like me drive over traffic islands in the fog too. Now you know why I always change tyres if I get a second hand motor! Daffo our 1.2 got his last two today to its all new Goodyear rubber now. The Bilstein dampers are a revelation and vastly better than Fiats ones. Trouble is they rattle so I need some sleeves to fit round the bolts. I think the top and bottom bushes are the wrong diameter. I am wondering if copper sheet might be sufficient maybe with some automotive silicon. The difference is in fact astonishing so I hope in due course to find they do dampers for the 4x4. Bravo is next though these still seem satisfactory at 97K.