Anyone used Motoflow magnetic fuel conditioner?

[Argonought]

...so why are motor manufacturers still producing petrol and diesel burning motors? Surely with the ever increasing fuel prices, the customer wants cheaper ways of getting around yet motors using alternative fuels are still few and far between.

Is that really such a fair comment when you consider Car of the Year 2010 is actually all electric :chin:

 

[sludgeguts]

Is that really such a fair comment when you consider Car of the Year 2010 is actually all electric :chin:

Why not?

My local Toyota stealer should be pushing their hybrid but there isn't one in there, across the road at the honda garage there are no hybrids or electrics on display.
In fact, when I bought my dobbie I was also looking to buy an EV for the OH to pootle to work & shopping etc but the only thing I could find was a toytown car on ebay.

It's a bit like the fashion industry, all the millions spent on bits of rag that barely cover the model's raspberries might make it to the cover of top fashion mags but you'll not see much like it on the high street. And it's the same with cars, every now and then a manufacturer hits the headlines with their latest motor that can do 1000 miles for 1p of fuel or an overnight charge costing 50p or a tank of compressed something costing a few bob or even a bucket of water but you never see them anywhere else but the news or youtube.
Now I would have thought these innovations would have been pushed beyond belief, get all the cars out of the forecourts & leave the petrol and diesel supplies for industry.

Interestingly, when my dad went to buy an 06 plate civic, he asked for the electric engine. (he was a 'valued customer', having bought a new civic every 3 years for quite a number of years)
The process was, you buy a new car, you then have to pay an additional £4k for the electric engine, batteries and installation - there was no mention of any big rebate for your own, perfectly sound engine with zero or delivery miles on it.

 

[Venters]

Is that really such a fair comment when you consider Car of the Year 2010 is actually all electric :chin:

It kinda reminds me of something Tim Robbins once said.

"Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance Team America, and then Team America goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money."

 

[skaramazoo]

I've been given 2 of these things and wondered if anyone had used them or anything similar?

I have fitted a set of four of these http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220627034575&ssPageName=STRK:MEBDIX:IT neat the fuel rail and have noticed increased mileage and fuel economy by about 20% to 25%.

 

[Venters]

I have fitted a set of four of these http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220627034575&ssPageName=STRK:MEBDIX:IT neat the fuel rail and have noticed increased mileage and fuel economy by about 20% to 25%.

Benifits from using Powermag Fuel Saver
1. Up to 30% Increase in Engine Life
2. Up to 50% Reduction in Carbon monoxide and Hydrocarbon
3. Up to 10% to 22% Fuel Savings
4. Does NOT void vehicle warranty
5. Works on all vehicle including diesel
6. Save Up to $500 to $1,500 a Year and more

7. No cutting of the fuel line
8. Up to 10 Horse Power Increase
9. 0% Maintenance for Life
10. Less Than 5 Minute to Install

Guaranteed Result!



Seriously why don't Fiat use these?

 

[skaramazoo]

....Seriously why don't Fiat use these?

Good question this. And for that matter, why doesn't any other manufacturer use these?
I don't really know but I think the answer lies in that all car manufacturers have some kind of close affiliation with petroleum companies and wouldn't want to go against their interests.

 

[Venters]

but I think the answer lies in that all car manufacturers have some kind of close affiliation with petroleum companies and wouldn't want to go against their interests.

Care to elaborate?

 

[skaramazoo]

What I'm getting at is that the large oil corporation wouldn't really want their profits slump due to reduced fuel consumption. I think that in itself makes sense. Doesn't it?

 

[udtrev]

then explain the Toyota Pious and the other assorted hybrids coming into the market !!!

 

[Argonought]

Not to mention the Nissan Leaf

Car manufacturers are in the business to make money and they sure wont do that by deliberately making them uneconomical.

It would really dumb for another reason too. If they accelerate the use of hydrocarbons then they reduce the time they have to make a profit from internal combustion driven vehicles

 

[sludgeguts]

Nissan Leaf - £24k
Toyota prius - £20k

I've recently bought the OH a brand new panda for a shade over £6.5k, you'd need to do a hell of a lot of motoring to recover that price difference.
As to the question "why don't fiat use magnets?"
You could also ask "why don't fiat install dual fuel systems in all diesels to take advantage of veg oil (waste or new)?"
And why not ijnstall an lpg system on petrol (as dual fuel) and diesels (to increase fuel efficiency / mpg?
We know the hydrogen cell tech works from the many, many youtube vids - so why don't car manufacturers install a small hydrogen cell to help boost power?
For that matter, why don't manufacturers install towbars (or everything apart from the ball) on all cars capable of towing & add a sticker inside the boot stating the max weight capable of being towed?
some cars have things like a sport button - for drivers who like to pretend they are Stirling Moss I guess. So why don't manufacturers install a small device which would allow us to tweak settings (on the antique cars the driver had to advance/retard the ignition as they drove ) before we set off?

And on the subject of manufacturers improving fuel economy, I get 45mpg from my engine - it's not really much of an improvement over the economy I was getting with my cars 20 or 30 years ago. The only thing I can say is that performance is improved as is safety.

 

[chaos]

Nissan Leaf - £24k
Toyota prius - £20k

I've recently bought the OH a brand new panda for a shade over £6.5k, you'd need to do a hell of a lot of motoring to recover that price difference.
As to the question "why don't fiat use magnets?"
You could also ask "why don't fiat install dual fuel systems in all diesels to take advantage of veg oil (waste or new)?"
And why not ijnstall an lpg system on petrol (as dual fuel) and diesels (to increase fuel efficiency / mpg?
We know the hydrogen cell tech works from the many, many youtube vids - so why don't car manufacturers install a small hydrogen cell to help boost power?
For that matter, why don't manufacturers install towbars (or everything apart from the ball) on all cars capable of towing & add a sticker inside the boot stating the max weight capable of being towed?
some cars have things like a sport button - for drivers who like to pretend they are Stirling Moss I guess. So why don't manufacturers install a small device which would allow us to tweak settings (on the antique cars the driver had to advance/retard the ignition as they drove ) before we set off?

And on the subject of manufacturers improving fuel economy, I get 45mpg from my engine - it's not really much of an improvement over the economy I was getting with my cars 20 or 30 years ago. The only thing I can say is that performance is improved as is safety.

When did you last see a large commercial biodiesel retailer? Imagine you're a motor manufacturer. Are you going to offer a warranty on a vehicle which can run on what is predominantly home made fuel? A fuel which would then be subject to no testing or certification? Petrol and diesel are produced to meet or exceed set standards.

What's the cost of an LPG system to be retro fitted? A grand, maybe a little more? What's the LPG fuelling infrastructure like compared to petrol/diesel? It's much smaller. Have manufacturers tried to retail dual fuel systems? I seem to remember Vauxhall doing it in recent years.

Hydrogen cell tech has 'worked' for a long time. But there's making something work and then making it work to the point where it can be implemented successfully. For example, hydrogen buses have been trialed in Iceland.

Not everyone who buys a car has bought it to tow. Why go to extra expense on each car they produce when it would only appeal to a proportion of the market? If you think about it, the number of cars that aren't capable of towing a small camping trailer are very small. So to do what you propose would take a hell of a lot of expense for what gain?

With a 'sport' button, the manufacturer still has control over the engine settings; settings which they deem will be safe for the running gear to still offer warranties on these cars. If you were a motor manufacturer, are you still going to offer a warranty when the punter could do what they wanted to the fuel and ignition maps? Plus, why go to the extra expense when it might not be a popular feature? Most people buy a car as a tool, therefore wouldn't want it. Those who buy to tune will probably take it a step or two further, meaning that the OEM mapping is obsolete/or that the OEM ECU set up isn't adequate for the tuner's needs.

Fuel economy might be similar in some cases (although I can't think of a diesel engine from the early 80s that can compete with the fuel mileage of contemporary diesels) but emissions and power and torque figures are massively inferior. An unstressed modern turbo diesel can easily meet and in some cases, beat most late 80s hot hatch in terms of power and torque.

Take the 1400/1500cc Peugeot diesel lumps fitted to the 106 in the early to mid 90s and compare to to a Lupo/Arosa 3 cylinder TDi. Both are known to very fuel efficient. A 106 can easily exceed 50-55mpg if driven with a bit of thought and care. With the same amount of care a Lupo TDi has been shown to beat that by a fair margin. If you then put both cars on a drag strip, which one do you think would win?

 

[Argonought]

Nissan Leaf - £24k
Toyota prius - £20k

Well the answer is pretty simple.

Either it doesn't work or the increased cost of the conversion would add too much to the cost (without adding to extra profit).

Manufacturers are out to make as much profit as possible and that's the key reason modern high tech vehicles are marketed as high status acquisitions with a price to match.

It's naive to think manufactures actually care about the environment (their ads might suggest they do). All they want is increased market share and profits for shareholders. If they could do that by making their cars more economical than their competitors, at minimal cost (such as installing magnets on the fuel line), then you can be sure they would.

 

[udtrev]

Don't forget Fiat DO make a panda that runs on LPG - shame it's not available in the UK :-(

 

[sludgeguts]

When did you last see a large commercial biodiesel retailer? etc etcQUOTE]


30-odd years ago I knew one person who drove a dual fuel car - today I don't know anybody.
It may cost over a grand to retrofit LPG as dual fuel but for a manufacturer to fit would cost considerably less AND make the car more attractive to many punters.
The number of refuelling stations has grown VERY slowly but if cars had the dual option from day one then every forecourt would get their act together pdq. If I had to drive 10 miles to fill up with gas I'd most likely fill up with diesel at the same time.
As for manufacturers warrantying home-made fuels, Fiat told me they were happy for me to run my dobby on a 5% veg / 95% diesel mix - so why not add a small tank to the rear 1/4 panel that is insulated and can be filled with pure veg oil - again, installing from the off would cost a fraction of a retro fit & having the dual fuel facility would make the car more desirable. having this facility in all the oil burners would encourage the forecourts to sell biodiesel (certainly encourage someone to take the reins). Again, it is supply and demand. there are so few diesel drivers willing to give it a go that large scale production isn't viable.
As for the warranty - it wouldn't be too difficult for them to test if pure veg oil went in or something that was used for Bhajis yesterday.
As for the towbar, again, a retro fit cost me £100 and the equipment I got was a simple metal bar to replace the existing bumper bar plus the wiring which could be scotched into place - although there is actually a plug especially for this in the loom.
And yes, not everyone wants to tow but Vauxhall introduced one of their cars with a nifty bike rack built into the bumper - who the hell wants to ride a bike when you have a car? - but they obviously thought it worth trialling.

The thing with manufacturers fitting stuff is that it is bound to be much cheaper as they have purchasing power & to fit something as the car is assembled would be far cheaper than a retro job.
I've driven a few things recently which have a small device by the driver which allows me to adjust both door mirrors - why? As the driver I only need to get them right once & i can ask a helper - it's worked for many years. so fitting a fully adjustable mirror system is a very expensive waste of money. But it is a selling point - just as many other things are.
Personally, I would rather lose some of the luxury and have more economy.
I am more than aware that i can spin up my turbo and beat quite a lot of cars off the line but just in terms of mpg, I am a little worse off now than 20 years ago when I had a pug 2.3 diesel. In terms of performance, 0-60 was measured on a calender

Argonought is correct that the main drive is money rather than environment, although I'm not really sure that any of them are concentrating on squeezing more economy out of their cars as those figures always seem to be in small print

 

[chaos]

30-odd years ago I knew one person who drove a dual fuel car - today I don't know anybody.
It may cost over a grand to retrofit LPG as dual fuel but for a manufacturer to fit would cost considerably less AND make the car more attractive to many punters.
The number of refuelling stations has grown VERY slowly but if cars had the dual option from day one then every forecourt would get their act together pdq. If I had to drive 10 miles to fill up with gas I'd most likely fill up with diesel at the same time.
As for manufacturers warrantying home-made fuels, Fiat told me they were happy for me to run my dobby on a 5% veg / 95% diesel mix - so why not add a small tank to the rear 1/4 panel that is insulated and can be filled with pure veg oil - again, installing from the off would cost a fraction of a retro fit & having the dual fuel facility would make the car more desirable. having this facility in all the oil burners would encourage the forecourts to sell biodiesel (certainly encourage someone to take the reins). Again, it is supply and demand. there are so few diesel drivers willing to give it a go that large scale production isn't viable.
As for the warranty - it wouldn't be too difficult for them to test if pure veg oil went in or something that was used for Bhajis yesterday.
As for the towbar, again, a retro fit cost me £100 and the equipment I got was a simple metal bar to replace the existing bumper bar plus the wiring which could be scotched into place - although there is actually a plug especially for this in the loom.
And yes, not everyone wants to tow but Vauxhall introduced one of their cars with a nifty bike rack built into the bumper - who the hell wants to ride a bike when you have a car? - but they obviously thought it worth trialling.

The thing with manufacturers fitting stuff is that it is bound to be much cheaper as they have purchasing power & to fit something as the car is assembled would be far cheaper than a retro job.
I've driven a few things recently which have a small device by the driver which allows me to adjust both door mirrors - why? As the driver I only need to get them right once & i can ask a helper - it's worked for many years. so fitting a fully adjustable mirror system is a very expensive waste of money. But it is a selling point - just as many other things are.
Personally, I would rather lose some of the luxury and have more economy.
I am more than aware that i can spin up my turbo and beat quite a lot of cars off the line but just in terms of mpg, I am a little worse off now than 20 years ago when I had a pug 2.3 diesel. In terms of performance, 0-60 was measured on a calender

Argonought is correct that the main drive is money rather than environment, although I'm not really sure that any of them are concentrating on squeezing more economy out of their cars as those figures always seem to be in small print

So each car on the road is only regularly used by a single driver? And that there's always someone around to adjust the passenger mirror for you? Leccy mirrors are an option on many cars or fitted on certain trim levels (e.g. you can get early 90s cars with leccy mirrors and I don't mean on luxury cars either). Some people would (and have) pay a premium to have electric mirrors.

The two statements that I've put in bold; you say it's desirable to punters but not so much that it's viable for blanket implementation? A car manufacturer isn't going to fit something across the range (which would mean extra production costs) when they know that there's a good chance that some would not be in a position to exploit a dual fuel system fully. Consumers aren't going to pay for something they're not able to use. I don't have any figures to hand but Vauxhall have sold dual fuel vehicles for a number of years; however I would say that they're in the minority compared to their petrol/diesel only models.

I would say I see as many hybrid cars on the road as dual fuel cars. Due to the relatively small LPG infrastructure, LPG cars on the whole would be at an immediate disadvantage in the UK.

The Vauxhall bike fitting you were referring to was an option on the Corsa IIRC from the TV ad. Pretty much the same that towbars are an optional fitting on many cars available to buy today. Why fit from the factory on the offchance that the buyer wants it, rather than the buyer specifying at point of order which they can do now?

As it has been said, it's all to do with money at the end of the day. Manufacturers need to make money so that they can invest it in future technologies but consumers aren't going to buy things they're not going to be able to use.

 

[sludgeguts]

So each car on the road is only regularly used by a single driver? And that there's always someone around to adjust the passenger mirror for you? Leccy mirrors are an option on many cars or fitted on certain trim levels (e.g. you can get early 90s cars with leccy mirrors and I don't mean on luxury cars either). Some people would (and have) pay a premium to have electric mirrors.

The two statements that I've put in bold; you say it's desirable to punters but not so much that it's viable for blanket implementation? A car manufacturer isn't going to fit something across the range (which would mean extra production costs) when they know that there's a good chance that some would not be in a position to exploit a dual fuel system fully. Consumers aren't going to pay for something they're not able to use. I don't have any figures to hand but Vauxhall have sold dual fuel vehicles for a number of years; however I would say that they're in the minority compared to their petrol/diesel only models.

I would say I see as many hybrid cars on the road as dual fuel cars. Due to the relatively small LPG infrastructure, LPG cars on the whole would be at an immediate disadvantage in the UK.

The Vauxhall bike fitting you were referring to was an option on the Corsa IIRC from the TV ad. Pretty much the same that towbars are an optional fitting on many cars available to buy today. Why fit from the factory on the offchance that the buyer wants it, rather than the buyer specifying at point of order which they can do now?

As it has been said, it's all to do with money at the end of the day. Manufacturers need to make money so that they can invest it in future technologies but consumers aren't going to buy things they're not going to be able to use.

They say a fool and his money are soon parted - who would pay a premium for leccy mirrors when you are only going to adjust them once? Especially when most cars come with manual adjusters on the inside of the door.

I know loads of people who drive diesels and yet I am the only one 'brave' enough to chuck a gallon or two of used veg oil into the tank each fill - even though they know I have done this for a couple of years with no apparent problems.
To retro fit a veg oil kit would cost me £600 plus loads of time, a manufacturer could supply and fit the same for a fraction of that cost - and people would use it because it is there, instructions are in the handbook and it greatly reduces their running costs.
And I would also say that the majority of cars on the roads are single driver use.
The reason for a lack of lpg stations is simply the extortionate cost of retro fitting , it would take almost the lifetime of the car to recoup the cost & most people don't keep their cars that long - lpg is popular on the gas-guzzlers because you will recover the cost over a far shorter period of time than a normal family saloon.

 

[chaos]

They say a fool and his money are soon parted - who would pay a premium for leccy mirrors when you are only going to adjust them once? Especially when most cars come with manual adjusters on the inside of the door.

I know loads of people who drive diesels and yet I am the only one 'brave' enough to chuck a gallon or two of used veg oil into the tank each fill - even though they know I have done this for a couple of years with no apparent problems.
To retro fit a veg oil kit would cost me £600 plus loads of time, a manufacturer could supply and fit the same for a fraction of that cost - and people would use it because it is there, instructions are in the handbook and it greatly reduces their running costs.
And I would also say that the majority of cars on the roads are single driver use.
The reason for a lack of lpg stations is simply the extortionate cost of retro fitting , it would take almost the lifetime of the car to recoup the cost & most people don't keep their cars that long - lpg is popular on the gas-guzzlers because you will recover the cost over a far shorter period of time than a normal family saloon.

We're starting to talk semantics here but you could equally say why spend 6.5K on a Panda when you can have a perfectly serviceable car which is taxed and MOT'd for a few hundred quid? I don't think I could bring myself to buy a new car because of the amount of money that would be lost as soon as I got it home but I respect that's what some people want to do with their money. If people want to tick a few boxes on the options list, or go for a mid/upper spec model, who is anyone to tell them otherwise? Their money, their choice.

Again it's semantics but I can think of plenty people who I know that share cars. I would say the ratio is approximately 50-50.

I know it's repeating myself but I'm curious to hear your answer to this; if a car was using refined 'home made' biodiesel (assuming you can't run the engine on a diesel/filtered veg oil mix), can you see manufacturers offering a warranty when they can't control fuel quality?

 

[skaramazoo]

then explain the Toyota Pious and the other assorted hybrids coming into the market !!!

Too little too late. Electric car tech has been around for years and years and no manufacturer took it seriously only until very recently. That in itself raises suspicions. Not to mention that in a CNN Int'l report only a couple of years ago the hybrid technology was presented as almost inadequate and not really cost effective.
I believe the case is a bit more complicated than it seems at first sight.

 

[Venters]

This is stupid. Fiat has spent over a hundred million euros developing stop start and multiair, when they could have spent 2p a car on magnets? The answer is simple. They dont work. There simply hasnt been anything close to a cohesive argument for how these work.