No, I'm talking about the engine, turbo and gearbox. Opening them up for a look will cost money.
Off Topic A little 'thump' today on the pearlescent...
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Off Topic A little 'thump' today on the pearlescent...
No, I'm talking about the engine, turbo and gearbox. Opening them up for a look will cost money.
ahmett
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Cant you just put her on a dyno? If she is giving max hp then no issues with turbo or engine.
Gearbox? Well you can tell if a gearbox is messed up by driving it no?
And if you spend a few pounds as due diligence before buying the car, i see it as a good investment.
No, no you can't.
An engine will generally run just fine till it goes pop or till a problem becomes a problem
my 500 was a press car and had no problems other than a duff lambda sensor caused by dodgy fuel
it was ragged like a bitch all the time i had it too, and always was a willing performer :devil:
i think you lot need to get a grip
it was ragged like a bitch all the time i had it too, and always was a willing performer :devil:
i think you lot need to get a grip
Sorry Ahmett but things aren't that simple. An A500SS when driven hard is operating at the design limits of much of the powertrain and if I've correctly extracted all the detail from the various posts, this one would appear to be have been additionally compromised by being operated with insufficient oil in it. Even if it's performing perfectly now, without stripping down most of the car you simply can't detect stress and fatigue cracks in critical components, any one of which could develop into a major failure at any time and leave the owner with bills running into thousands.
Buying a car like this carries much the same level of risk as having unprotected sex with a transvestite Ethiopian prostitute and a quick visual check isn't going to make it much safer.
Which makes Rob's comment:
very good advice indeed.i think you lot need to get a grip
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I reckon that Maxi is reading this and using your words saying WTF. I reckon he's 'tied up' at the moment and would expect his 'words of wisdom' shortly. At least he has done the smart thing and not published pictures of his car with his registration numbers on them so he can't be found out.
yeah wtf
.... Then a coupe of days ago I was asked if I wanted to go onto onto a contract with the college that I'm working in for 3 months as a sort of trial with a view to being permanent.
Then this morning we've had some power issues with the servers that caused them all to go down and then one wouldn't come up properly :bang:
All sorted now and though and I'm looking forward to having just under 2 weeks off
WTF !! Demand 6 months on good contract pay then Permanent for them messing you around
Servers down wtf : get them sorted that's what they are paying you for, and do some excel macros whilst at it
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dynos have a terrible reputation for causing mechanical problems - it often can be the 'last straw'. I was advised not to put a Phase 2 chipped RS CVH Turbo on the rollers because the gearbox was a weak point on them.
my 500 was a press car and had no problems other than a duff lambda sensor caused by dodgy fuel
it was ragged like a bitch all the time i had it too, and always was a willing performer :devil:
i think you lot need to get a grip
Quite a difference between ragging a NA and a turbo car that is on the limit. Gearbox is rated for 206Nm and the esseesse model is giving out 201Nm. Some recommend that the oil in the gearbox is changed after a track day. Turbo is running at 1.2 bar up from 0.9 which needs the thicker 10W50 so it does not 'break down' - again at the limit. Current records show that the oil has not been changed for 13,075miles from new and that's with all the 'bums on the seat' that it has had to-date. The gearbox on an advertised A500 car that I recently drove with 21K is whining in all the forward gears - not just reverse...
http://www.abarthforum.co.uk/500-abarth-tuning/gearbox-on-tuned-ss'd-abarths/
http://www.abarthforum.co.uk/general-abarth/a500-gearbox-problems/
http://www.abarthforum.co.uk/500-abarth-tuning/gearbox-options-what-are-they/.
http://www.abarthforum.co.uk/500-abarth/gearbox/
Any concern or misgivings you have towards a car pre purchase will be greatly magnified once you have paid a whole pile of cash for it. The vehicle that you want is too expensive to take a punt/risk towards in my opinion - not that you asked me but this is a forum after all.
Buy a brand new twin air plus for the money - you know, the one that you said are wannabe Abarth ;-) on the Abarth side of the forum.
.....incidentally, WE are not wannabe Abarth....if we wanted one we would have bought one
Plain gut feeling should direct you, make the decision yourself whilst miles away from the car.
Thanks for the input sizer. All inputs graciously received.
Re the wannabe Abarth you would surprised on the number that would like to have one but would not necessarily want the running costs. Time will tell if the TA can take a ragging on a 'regular basis' - its gearbox is technically on the limit.
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That would have been a good quote for the salesman today.
Rang up today at lunch-hour to have a 'talk' with the main guy I was dealing with but he was unavailable to take my call. I did get a call back around 4pm from the 'resident' salesman and I eased him into a 'tight corner'. He thought he had the 'cat in the bag' at the start of the call because it was quite obvious at the time that I wanted the car. The car did pogo when I was driving it (shouldn't on an esseesse) so I said that the shocks were 'gone' or the SS springs weren't in there. I put him straight on the 16K trade sale stating that it wasn't a runner and there was no way that Fiat would stand by the 2 year manufacturers warranty if anything went wrong before May 2012. A sample of the oil would be taken from the engine and given the build of scum under the oil cap it would be obvious that the oil wasn't in the condition that it should be. Mentioned the pics of the car were up on the web with the rally seats on another ad. Call concluded with him saying that they will probably dicky the car up now and give it a service and advertise it for a more 'competitive' price to cover their additional outlay.
I would always been defensive of FIAT having owned & driven from memory around 16 of their models but this experience for me has been a HUGH disappointment.
On a separate note I could have started a thread on the Abarth or Abarthisti section and I am truly glad that I did it here in the 500 section given the wealth and mix of not only technical 'know-how' & experience but the asthetics input was good as well.
Nah I'm not that bothered. The pay is a good 4k more than I've ever been on before and the job is pretty good. I get to work with young adults with learning disabilities and tbh it's the best job I've ever had. There's none of the dealing with ungrateful tewats that you have in most jobs.
LOL it's the same engine/state of tune in my bravo so not really anything special and in my car the service intervals are 18k
Sorry to hear of your woes with Fiat over here Michael, tbh they never struck me as being particularly proactive, particularly compared to say Renault for example, the Fiat IRL website always appears a bit out of date and they're still including the 1.2 Sport although when you enquire via a dealer its apparently no longer available! also no mention of the TA Plus on the site....are we not getting it? I reckon they could easily sell a lot more 500's here with a bit more, sorry, a LOT more marketing effort, I called in to two dealers to get a test drive in a TA and neither had one available........great! Embarrassing really. They're probably scratching their heads wondering why their sales are down! :bang:
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LOL it's the same engine/state of tune in my bravo so not really anything special and in my car the service intervals are 18k
It is close enough - rated at 150bhp compared with 160bhp but there is a difference...
the IHI turbo on the Bravo is a VL36 model whilst the A500 is a VL37 and the Bravo 120bhp is a VL38. You can see from the numbers that the turbo in the Bravo T-Jet 150 is a bit more beefy and the differences in the models were explained here at the 2 ends of the spectrum. It has been commented that the IHI turbos used in the A500 is one of the smallest around and given the boost at 1.2bar it is at the maximum before it starts to produce 'hot air'.
The torque produced in the Bravo is 230Nm higher than the A500SS at 201Nm but then the gearbox is different on the Bravo which uses the Grand Punto/Punto Evo 6 speed gearbox which is rated much higher (seen figures of 350Nm)
I'm unsure if the Bravo uses a LSD like the one on GP but this would be kinder to a gearbox than the TTC in the A500 - essentially an electronic setup which really means that the brakes are applied to 'hold' the power back. Engaging the TTC on a track causes the brakes to prematurely heat up hence the default setting of it being left to off.
The tyres used on the SS are more grippy Michelins which don't wheel spin as much as the Pirellis. Wheel spin saves the gearbox. So there is a downside to that grip.
I may have over-reacted on this esseese & I'm glad that you are putting some balance to discussion of the 'touchability' of a secondhand esseesse. Also surprised to see your interval service set at 18K which is probably a testament to how 'strong' the FIRE engine is. But would you buy this 'press' car and if so - how much do you reckon is it worth as a 'trade sale' ?
Thames Fiat have had some 'celebrity' A500s for sale and i must say i was tempted, to me the A500 is built to be tracked and as long as a warranty is in place i wouldnt worry. i would be modding it anyway.
prices/values of A500s seem silly high and i have seen ex press fleet cars at Slough for sale at list, so as long as there are customers willing to pay why wouldnt the dealer try to maximise revenue...
i am very impressed by the Bravo, engine and drivetrain feels very strong and now on 60k has never performed better, i havent bothered mapping it - just an induction kit
i would love an A500 but the price is just too high for a small fiat
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This one would have no warranty since they didn't service it so as a cash / trade sale - no comeback 'sale' - what you reckon it would be worth ?
I have used the vrt.ie web site to get some idea as to how revenue value it and it has put a more realistic value on how overpriced they are.
i would walk away if it has incomplete history and no warranty
IMO much less than what it will end up being sold for. Just because someone else is prepared to pay the price doesn't make it worth the money.
Seriously, given what you saw when you removed the oil filler cap, why are you even considering this? If you want an A500SS (nothing wrong with that
) but can't afford one, then you probably can't afford to buy this either, because it could end up costing you more in the end.Whatever the price, the near term running costs are going to be all about how much will need to be spent on unscheduled maintenance. That's of course completely impossible to predict - we can all post our thoughts & opinions but remember it'll be your hard cash if anything does blow up.
So, given the abuse it's had and the fact that it's the most powerful & highly stressed 500 in the world, the question for any prospective buyer has gotta be:
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IMO much less than what it will end up being sold for. Just because someone else is prepared to pay the price doesn't make it worth the money.
Seriously, given what you saw when you removed the oil filler cap, why are you even considering this? If you want an A500SS (nothing wrong with that
Whatever the price, the near term running costs are going to be all about how much will need to be spent on unscheduled maintenance. That's of course completely impossible to predict - we can all post our thoughts & opinions but remember it'll be your hard cash if anything does blow up.
So, given the abuse it's had and the fact that it's the most powerful & highly stressed 500 in the world, the question for any prospective buyer has gotta be:
When RobW said to 'get a grip' it triggered a bit of research work into the tolerances of the gearbox, the turbo and the differences between the A500 and the Bravo. It's surprising how much information you can dig out of the FF in an hour or so. It is mine of information.
You're getting to hate me JR but I put an offer in of €14K on the car by text to the 'main' man himself as a trade sale that will 'hold' for the next couple of days along with thanking him for facilitating the test drive. Unlikely that he will accept. If the car was 'any good' it would have been snapped up by one of the Fiat employees. But the car does feel 'lucky' and was much better than the other A500 / A500SS cars that I have driven to-date.
My budget is around €15K-€16 and I'm leaving a bit of slack for future repairs.
Most of the 'standard' A500 cars seem to be running TMC piggy back chips that has increased the output to around 165bhp - more than the esseesse. Even some of the esseesse models have them as well and brings the power up to 170bhp. Add on the Monza it's now at 175bhp.
I would imagine that at that output they are exceeding the sustained torque rating for the Alfa 147 gearbox. This gearbox was in the OHs car and was a 'horse' of a gearbox and could take a lot of punishment. One individual that used to be on here did 'break' it at 5K but he apppears to be the exception. So in summary - practically all the A500s are overstressed. I wonder is Grimwau selling his - that would be a good secondhand buy.
I accept that oil is well past is best. The scum I mentioned earlier on was caused by lying up and not getting enough long runs to burn the vapour off. Oil should have been changed at 6K miles. There are loads of A500s only getting the oil changed at 12K (old schedule) or even 18K (confused dealers) so it would not be the first. So even thought it might be contaminated I don't think that its 'HIV infected' and with the right 'medication' I reckon it could last longer than possibly ahmett's car.:devil: I accept that this car will have a shorter life and hopefully there was no headcase holding it in the redline for too long but then the A500 does not really rev past 5000rpm with most of the power coming on early.
I provisionally arranged to go up and see a demo Pearlescent White
A500 in N.I. possibly before the year end - a demo model with 3K-4K miles on the clock - its the only A500 they have. It will be 6 months old on the 4.2.12 so it would not be subject to VAT on importing it. They were in process of getting it esseessed a month ago but could not get the chip upgrade to work. Abarth used to send out a new ECU but that has since stopped. The car is now left is as a 'standard' A500 with the 'petals'.In the meantime the Marea is running nicely (touch wood) and the OH isn't complaining any more about it having 're-acclimatised'. So for the moment I have time on my side but the NCT is up this Feb.
Many thanks in particular to yourself JR
and to everyone else.Thought you would appreciate the picture of a 'Wise man and a Fool'. You can guess which one I am.
http://salamsmkserian.blogspot.com/2009/09/wise-man-and-fool.html
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ahmett
Prominent member
When RobW said to 'get a grip' it triggered a bit of research work into the tolerances of the gearbox, the turbo and the differences between the A500 and the Bravo. It's surprising how much information you can dig out of the FF in an hour or so. It is mine of information.
You're getting to hate me JR but I put an offer in of €14K on the car by text to the 'main' man himself as a trade sale that will 'hold' for the next couple of days along with thanking him for the facilitating the test drive. Unlikely that he will accept. If the car was 'any good' it would have been snapped up by one of the Fiat employees. But the car does feel 'lucky' and was much better than the other cars that I have driven to-date.
My budget is around €15K-€16 and I'm leaving a bit of slack for future repairs.
Most of the 'standard' A500 cars seem to be running TMC piggy back chips that has increased the output to around 165bhp - more than the esseesse. Even some of the esseesse models have them as well and brings the power up to 170bhp. Add on the Monza it's now at 175bhp.
I would imagine that at that output they are exceeding the sustained torque rating for the Alfa 147 gearbox. This gearbox was in the OHs car and was a 'horse' of a gearbox and could take a lot of punishment. One individual that used to be on here did 'break' it at 5K but he apppears to be the exception. So in summary - practically all the A500s are overstressed. I wonder is Grimwau selling his - that would be a good secondhand buy.
I accept that oil is well past is best. The scum I mentioned earlier on was caused by lying up and not getting enough long runs to burn the vapour off. Oil should have been changed at 6K miles. There are loads of A500s only getting the oil changed at 12K (old schedule) or even 18K (confused dealers) so it would not be the first. So even thought it might be contaminated I don't think that its 'HIV infected' and with the right 'medication' I reckon it could last longer than possibly ahmett's car.:devil: I accept that this car will have a shorter life and hopefully there was no headcase holding it in the redline for too long but then the A500 does really rev past 5000rpm with most of the power coming on early.
I provisionally arranged to go up and see a demo Pearlescent White
In the meantime the Marea is running nicely (touch wood) and the OH isn't complaining any more about it having 're-acclimatised'. So for the moment I have time on my side but the NCT is up this Feb.
Many thanks in particular to yourself JR
Thought you would appreciate the picture of a 'Wise man and a Fool'. You can guess which one I am.
http://salamsmkserian.blogspot.com/2009/09/wise-man-and-fool.html
Hope they accept the offer! Dont worry about the engine damage it should be fine!
You're getting to hate me JR
Thought you would appreciate the picture of a 'Wise man and a Fool'. You can guess which one I am.
Not a bit of it . The upside is that if you are 'lucky', you could move it on in a year or two without suffering the mind-boggling depreciation involved with a new one, having had a lot of fun in the process. And you can service it yourself without worrying about the warranty
.Hope you get the outcome you're looking for - and Merry Christmas
.
have you considered buying in england, the prices seem to be lower?
