Technical 5sp gearbox swap with Ford Ka - gear ratios [2012 Punto Pop 1.2]

[Dave_B]

This might be a daft question but..... I've just had a used Ford Ka gearbox fitted in a 2012 Punto Pop 1.2. The car definitely feels like it has higher gearing now. A Ka of the same age had 14" wheels as OE (versus 15" OE on the Punto) so I guess the final drive ratio could be higher to make up for that?

Or maybe I'm hallucinating......

Thanks!

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Define a problem. What's wrong with the car. Does it drive OK, or not?
If OK, then Thread Closed.
Yes, gearboxes have different ratios across the models, years (Grande VS Evo/2012), so Fiat VS Ford can be different too. No surprise at all.

 

[Dave_B]

I appreciate the response. That's helpful. I didn't say it was a problem, I was asking whether it was likely that I'd unintentionally changed the final drive ratio. The car is driving just fine even if that is the case.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I appreciate the response. That's helpful. I didn't say it was a problem, I was asking whether it was likely that I'd unintentionally changed the final drive ratio. The car is driving just fine even if that is the case.

Ignore him.

Often on cars the wheel sizes might be different but the tire size makes up for any difference in the rolling circumference of the tire.
It may be something like the KA being smaller and lighter but having the same engine as the relatively bigger and heavier Punto, is able to get away with running a higher ratio without loosing any pulling power away from the lights, they have to gear the punto down a little to keep the acceleration up, but it just means the car needs more revs to get it moving.

You could probably look it up if you can get your hands on the KA info, usually the hand book or looking around online you can find a break down of every ratio in the box and final drive, so that might answer your question conclusively.

Did you fit a new clutch with the box? Is there any possibility the old clutch was slipping a little and this is why it now feels much more responsive ?

 

[Dave_B]

Ignore him.

Often on cars the wheel sizes might be different but the tire size makes up for any difference in the rolling circumference of the tire.
It may be something like the KA being smaller and lighter but having the same engine as the relatively bigger and heavier Punto, is able to get away with running a higher ratio without loosing any pulling power away from the lights, they have to gear the punto down a little to keep the acceleration up, but it just means the car needs more revs to get it moving.

You could probably look it up if you can get your hands on the KA info, usually the hand book or looking around online you can find a break down of every ratio in the box and final drive, so that might answer your question conclusively.

Did you fit a new clutch with the box? Is there any possibility the old clutch was slipping a little and this is why it now feels much more responsive ?

Thank you!

I'm not going to sweat about the small difference in ratios, I was just curious and it's definitely different. I've now done a couple of hundred motorway miles and the revs are lower at around 70 mph. The clutch wasn't slipping previously but the bearing had gone - it was squealing for a day or so and had scored the fork quite badly.

The mechanic sourced the replacement box at a great price so I was happy to replace both and it all feels fine now. Good for another 140,000 miles

 

[rmjbn1]

Someone on here put a gearbox from a 1.2 8v Grande Punto in a 1.2 8v Panda and found the ratios were significantly different.

Mostly final drive, 5th is also a different ratio. This taken from carfolio.com:

So yes, the same gearbox has a range of different ratios for different cars, mostly due to weight, even with the same engine.

If the car still drives fine for you but you've dropped some rpm at cruising speed I'd say that's a win. Might have lost a bit of acceleration, so trying to beat the boys away from the line might be a bit more challenging

 

[Dave_B]

Someone on here put a gearbox from a 1.2 8v Grande Punto in a 1.2 8v Panda and found the ratios were significantly different.

Mostly final drive, 5th is also a different ratio. This taken from carfolio.com:
View attachment 454104
So yes, the same gearbox has a range of different ratios for different cars, mostly due to weight, even with the same engine.

If the car still drives fine for you but you've dropped some rpm at cruising speed I'd say that's a win. Might have lost a bit of acceleration, so trying to beat the boys away from the line might be a bit more challenging

Wow, that's interesting. I just Googled around and the final drive ratio of a 2012 Ka should be 3.81, and a before-after swap difference of maybe 7-10% seems about right to me.

My Punto wasn't exactly a rocket off the line previously. I won't be giving the boy racers any sleepless nights.....

 

[Pitzky]

Wow, that's interesting. I just Googled around and the final drive ratio of a 2012 Ka should be 3.81, and a before-after swap difference of maybe 7-10% seems about right to me.

My Punto wasn't exactly a rocket off the line previously. I won't be giving the boy racers any sleepless nights.....

Is it noticeable on the mpg? I would assume that if you can cruise at the same speed but lower rpm on the motorway that might end up saving you some fuel in the end...not that I would do it on the car unless it breaks, but I used a similar principle on one of my motorbikes by using a different gearing ratio on the primary and secondary chain sprockets...didn't manage to ride it since though, as other issues appeared...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Someone on here put a gearbox from a 1.2 8v Grande Punto in a 1.2 8v Panda and found the ratios were significantly different.

Mostly final drive, 5th is also a different ratio. This taken from carfolio.com:
View attachment 454104
So yes, the same gearbox has a range of different ratios for different cars, mostly due to weight, even with the same engine.

If the car still drives fine for you but you've dropped some rpm at cruising speed I'd say that's a win. Might have lost a bit of acceleration, so trying to beat the boys away from the line might be a bit more challenging

It fits ? I thought the grande box was from Vauxhall hence being well know for being made of chocolate and breaking it you looked at it a little to sternly?

The Ka was made on the same production line and platform as the fiat 500 and Lancia Ypsilon so they just used fiat parts in the KA including engines and gearboxes

 

[rmjbn1]

It fits ? I thought the grande box was from Vauxhall

According to this user, claims had a 2007 GP box fitted to a 2007 Panda:

Eleganza Gearbox Issue | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Hello! First time posting and not at all car minded but I'm having issues with my garage following a second hand gearbox replacement and figured someone out there might be able to help. Three weeks ago the clutch in my 1.2 57 reg Eleganza went and took my gearbox with it, it's at 119k miles...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Dave_B]

Is it noticeable on the mpg? I would assume that if you can cruise at the same speed but lower rpm on the motorway that might end up saving you some fuel in the end...not that I would do it on the car unless it breaks, but I used a similar principle on one of my motorbikes by using a different gearing ratio on the primary and secondary chain sprockets...didn't manage to ride it since though, as other issues appeared...

I haven't done many miles with the new gearbox but it does seem to be returning slightly better mpg. Motorway cruising seemed less frenetic. Will keep an eye on economy....

 

[GrandePunto PL]

By the way. You should get this paper during car purchase. Seems no one has that (I'm the only one on the planet).

Gear ratios are there...

If you change ratios, cruise control may refuse to work (car speed does not match the RPM's, static map programmed into ECU).

 

[Dave_B]

By the way. You should get this paper during car purchase. Seems no one has that (I'm the only one on the planet).

Gear ratios are there...

If you change ratios, cruise control may refuse to work (car speed does not match the RPM's, static map programmed into ECU).

I'll check to see if I still have that amongst the original paperwork. Cruise control is unaffected as my car doesn't have it....

 

[PuntoHowTo]

According to this user, claims had a 2007 GP box fitted to a 2007 Panda:

Eleganza Gearbox Issue | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Hello! First time posting and not at all car minded but I'm having issues with my garage following a second hand gearbox replacement and figured someone out there might be able to help. Three weeks ago the clutch in my 1.2 57 reg Eleganza went and took my gearbox with it, it's at 119k miles...

www.fiatforum.com

Ignore me this very thread is about a ka box being used in a grande so clearly they’re compatible, I was just having a mental moment

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I'll check to see if I still have that amongst the original paperwork. Cruise control is unaffected as my car doesn't have it....

Uk hand books often have all that information printed in the back of the hand book, my old mk1 has the certificate of conformity printed in the hand book

They never issued a separate document here in the uk

As GrandePunto PL is in Poland it may be a left over that they used to issue these documents prior to Poland becoming part of the EU in 2004. The grande launched in 2005 in most countries so not impossible that Poland still needed some separate documentation prior to everything becoming standardised under EU type approval

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Car was imported from Germany if that helps (or changes a thing).
But so far, NO ONE posted such thing in the internet (like no one has that paper - only me). Weird...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

A Quick Look around a few Italian and European Parliament sites combined with my limited Italian suggests they were no longer needed after type approval legislation was introduced in 2007, that said there were plenty of places showing links to these documents. But I’m doing this on my phone which is getting on in age and does not like PDFs