Technical 500 overheating cause

[br1zz]

A while ago my wife's 500 suffered intermittent heating/cooling issues which resulted in me flushing the system (2010 car coolant had never been changed) replacing the coolant, thermostat and expansion cap. After bleeding the system all seemed ok - this was about 6 months ago.

There has been a sloshing sound when the engine is cold (not sure if this ever went away from before), the heating has not been getting really hot (it's not the weather to be using the hot air so this has gone largely unnoticed), often the radiator fan runs when you turn off the ignition at the end of a journey and sometimes the idle revs speed up randomly like there is a slight load on the engine. Then the other day a warning light came on the dash saying the engine was overheating.

I had a look and the coolant level had dropped to around the min mark. I topped it up and checked the heating which would not get hot. I managed to bleed a little air out of the rad and a bit more out of the heater hose and the heating worked straight away. A couple of days later the level has dropped slightly and the hose needed bleeding in order to get the heating to work.

I have had the car on ramps and all the hoses and thermostat housing look fine, there is noticeable pink staining on one edge of the radiator (expansion tank end) and it's wet directly below this on the bottom cross-member of the car.

If there's a leak from the radiator, I guess the coolant loss is explained but would it cause air to get trapped preventing the heater from working too ?
Is there any way I can rule out the head gasket and water pump before I change the rad in case they need attention at the same time ?

Any advice or experience of similar on a 1.2 petrol would be appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

A while ago my wife's 500 suffered intermittent heating/cooling issues which resulted in me flushing the system (2010 car coolant had never been changed) replacing the coolant, thermostat and expansion cap. After bleeding the system all seemed ok - this was about 6 months ago.

There has been a sloshing sound when the engine is cold (not sure if this ever went away from before), the heating has not been getting really hot (it's not the weather to be using the hot air so this has gone largely unnoticed), often the radiator fan runs when you turn off the ignition at the end of a journey and sometimes the idle revs speed up randomly like there is a slight load on the engine. Then the other day a warning light came on the dash saying the engine was overheating.

I had a look and the coolant level had dropped to around the min mark. I topped it up and checked the heating which would not get hot. I managed to bleed a little air out of the rad and a bit more out of the heater hose and the heating worked straight away. A couple of days later the level has dropped slightly and the hose needed bleeding in order to get the heating to work.

I have had the car on ramps and all the hoses and thermostat housing look fine, there is noticeable pink staining on one edge of the radiator (expansion tank end) and it's wet directly below this on the bottom cross-member of the car.

If there's a leak from the radiator, I guess the coolant loss is explained but would it cause air to get trapped preventing the heater from working too ?
Is there any way I can rule out the head gasket and water pump before I change the rad in case they need attention at the same time ?

Any advice or experience of similar on a 1.2 petrol would be appreciated.

Hi,
HG's are reasonably common,
rad's..that's just AGE potentially.

personally I'd just clean-up the pink stains, and refill,
then run carefully for a few hours .. maintain a decent coolant level,

then get the system pressure tested - if it's the cap is failing it'll explain MOST of your symptoms,
if it's NOT holding pressure then the system can "boil".. , there is potential of it slowly dumping coolant to draw in air , and explain the gurgling and poor heater.

Charlie 1.1 panda , 2 x HG's and 1 x heater matrix - NO RAD or CAP issues.

 

[marcusgillies]

if the head has gone, doubt it though, water in the oil, oil milky.

I've had similar symptoms in the past, one of my first cars a Polo (many years ago) used to boil after about 30 min's it sounded like a kettle, I took it back to the garage more times than I care to remember, they couldn't find the cause. Back then my boss at told me it was more than lightly a hose that had delaminated internally causing a blockage. Sure enough after some tedious investigating that's exactly what it was. Pressure testing, changing caps, flushing the cooling system, testing and renewing and indeed running without a thermostat didn't make any difference.

I've known this on more than a few occasions that's one of the reasons the majority of marine engine builders use silicone hoses.

Don't get excited this pic was taken in 1989

 

[John202020]

If there's a(noticeable) leak, as it heats up water gets pushed out, as it cools air is pulled in, the cycle continues getting worse as it goes( and the level drops giving poor heater output, a very good indicator of cooling problems that should not be ignored) as the now air in the system expands much more than the water pushing even more water out suckling more air in?
I would replace the radiator then go from there,
New rad from EuroCarParts £60 using "summersale" discount code, delivered

 

[br1zz]

Thanks for the advice so far...I'll order a radiator and take it from there. The suggestion about blocked hoses is interesting; the top radiator hose never feels like its full of coolant - it just feels empty - but it does heat up as it the thermostat is opening when warm so something must be flowing through it, maybe that is one point where any air will collect, along with the matrix as the highest points of the system. I have only looked for obvious leaks at the hose ends so far but I will take them off and inspect them when I do the rad just to be sure.

Thanks everyone, if I fix it I'll let you know.

 

[Happybubbas]

Thanks for the advice so far...I'll order a radiator and take it from there. The suggestion about blocked hoses is interesting; the top radiator hose never feels like its full of coolant - it just feels empty - but it does heat up as it the thermostat is opening when warm so something must be flowing through it, maybe that is one point where any air will collect, along with the matrix as the highest points of the system. I have only looked for obvious leaks at the hose ends so far but I will take them off and inspect them when I do the rad just to be sure.



Thanks everyone, if I fix it I'll let you know.

I've got a couple of new Nissen radiators for sale on eBay if your interested?

Hope it's ok to post this.

 

[Fiat568]

Hi there,


My fiat 500 is showing similar symptoms:


Sloshing noise
Fan running a bit after carstopped
No warm air blowing from internal heater

I had a message warning on dashboard saying excessive rad temp so wentstraight to garage as I knew nothing about coollant fluids and car rad.
When they looked at they same an almost empty rad so they toppedit up with the pink fluid (I assume this is the paraflu that Fiatrecommend)....
Then I mention the internal heater issue and the guy said we’llrun a diagnostic for a possible leak...


So they ran tests – pressure tests – found NOTHING.
So....I drive away, park car, next day see wet patches under cardriver side about in line with rad...check max/min levels and see coolantdropped below min....


So the garage kindly said they would look at it again
...so it goes back in....has the same pressure tests, check everything,have it on ramp, have mats and paper underneath – run theengine....NOTHING...no sign of a leak...


So I drive away, park, next day notice another patch.....


Can I ask: has anyone else experienced this type of issue on aFiat 500?
The garage said they’d tried everything and found nothing.....
But when I was leaving they suggested that it could possibly bethe rad cap?
Could this be a damaged cap and if so would this cause such issueswith coolant levels dropping yet finding no leaks?...
It’s bizzare.....

 

[rallycinq]

It could be that the leak only happens when the car is cold. As it warms the crack/gap/whatever expands and seals.

Leave the car with the garage overnight and ask them to check when cold.

In future add coolant level check to your weekly lights and levels check.

D

 

[Fiat568]

Many thanks, the carhas been to the garage twice and stayed overnight on its second visit – infact itwas there for 2 full days, they hadengine running (but I assume the car not moving) and had car on ramps and nothing. They hadmats/paper underneath and also applied the pumps for pressure test andnothing...yet I drive away, park, next day see a wet patch under car in linewith rad area on driver’s side...the coolant has been topped up so I am going tomonitor it.


I will use the car tomorrow, do a local errand and then parkand leave and see what happens in terms of wet patch appearing and possible dropin coolant level.
It was one of the guys at garage that when I picked up carsuggested that it could be the rad cap as they had literally tried everything andnot one drop!
...it’s a mystery....
I don’t know much about the mechanics of a cooling systembut I assume that the process is something along the lines of:
Start car
Car warms
Coolant /water floods into car to feed heater etc (??)
Drive around
Park/ stop
Coolant/water returns to radiator?.....
At what point does the coolant expand? Is this when itfloods back to reservoir?
There is no leak inside car and no visible pink staining anywhere.....
Should I get some paraflush – the one that fiat recommends?
Thanks very much for the reply –

 

[renaultvation]

Before you spend too much time or money chasing this problem, check that the damp patches are not just condensation from the car standing overnight. I have two cars which live outside (one a Fiat 500) and they both leave damp patches when I drive off. If I leave one of them in the garage overnight, there is no damp patch where it stood.

 

[John202020]

Hi what age is the car?
When the wet patch appears is it right under where the radiator is or slightly behind it more under the engine?

Our car(59 plate), I replaced a water pipe that runs behind the exhaust but in front of the engine, its metal and prone to rusting, a more serious possibility is that the water pump is leaking also o the left side of the engine as you look at it standing in front of the car.

There's is a bleed valve in the heater hose that supplies the hot water to the heater inside the car, if the hose is not bled it limits the water so the heater may work poorly or not at all.

Don't remove the radiator cap if the car is hot

 

[Fiat568]

Thanks guys. This is helpful. I've checked the car after a short drive yesterday. This morning wet patch underneath left drivers side. To me it looks like it's closer to the coolant bottle reservoir rad area.
The patch is black and I wouldn't know if it has coolent in it as this is pink. However the coolent level has dropped to on the minimum line and it was definitely a good inch above.
I don't think this is normal.
There are no pink coolant marks on the bottle coolant area none whatsoever but the coolent level is lower and there's a patch underneath the car in around the same area.
Where else could the coolent go if it leaked other than on the ground or around the bottle radiator?
It looks like it's loosing coolent after a drive and standing outside overnight.
The mechanic couldn't find evidence of leak. And they carried out this pressure test so I'm assuming the car is holding pressure. ..
Car 2015....
Any ideas?

 

[Fiat568]

...could it be linked to the rad cap? There is no leaking inside the car and the only evidence to my eye is a recurring wet patch and a drop in coolent level....

 

[Schumi2001]

I've had a few cars with the 1.1 / 1.2 FIRE engine. If you're having any issues with the cooling system, I'd recommend doing a full swap of radiator, water pump and thermostat. Not particularly expensive to do, but I've always maintained that doing them all together stops you chasing issues later. (Just done the same with my Seicento Schumacher as it was overheating on track days, although not overheating on the road)

 

[Peanut01]

Head gasket leak? Check your oil.. if there is sludge on the oilcap.. then you problably have coolant in your engine. Get your oil dipstick out and put a cigarette lighter at the oil on the stick. when you hear a kind of fizzing/popping sound.. then you know where your missing coolant is.

 

[typecastboy]

How about the bottom plastic connector on the radiator. The bottom hose connects to it. It’s a 90 degree bend hard plastic connector that merely pushes into the bottom of the rad. It has a metal clip that locks it into place and are a pain to get off, but it could be weeping. It also happens to be very close to the bottle. It’s strange that you’re not seeing any pink coolant though. The heat would expand that but if the weather was particularly cold maybe it’s contracting enough for a small amount to seep. Could be the joint or the rad. Just a thought.

 

[Fiat568]

Many thanks..these are all really good suggestions. .why didn't the garage pick up on these possibilities? I paid for a check and it went on twice and both times they've sent me away with no answer.
Im no mechanic but I know the car is loosing coolant after a drive and being parked outside.
I'm happy to check the oil but a bit unsure about me putting a small flame next to the dipstick. ..is there another way I can test to see if the coolant is mixed in the oil?
If it is a gasket leak what should I be looking at in terns of repairs and would it be safe to drive short distance?
The plastic connector on the rad and the metallic clipaint also sound possible. There's definitely no pink fluid anywhere and I'm assuming when it was in the garage twice they would have surely checked underneath. ...as this plastic connector is close to the bottle then this too is likely. ..
Again I terms of repair and what to do next what am I looking at?
I think I should ask a garage maybe a different one to check the gasket and the plastic connector on radiator. ..the pink stuff is going somewhere and I think it could be one of these...
If the garage did pressure test would this include checking this plastic connector?
Much thanks for helping me work this out....

 

[swifty500]

Firstly, to either confirm or deny it, get the head gasket checked- Garages use a liquid which takes some coolant from the reservoir, and it changes colour if it senses combustion gases in the sample-ebay DIY kit as well for £20
If this is ok, i have just got a special UV dye that you put in the coolant and can then use a UV torch to see where it is leaking.

 

[John202020]

Given that a patch of water appears on the ground on repeating occasions in the same place, its a good guess there's a leak in "that area" rather than the head gasket(not saying its not that, and the engine is sensitive to low coolant) a very rough test is to look on the reverse of the oil filler cap, if it looks just oily its fine if it looks like mayonnaise its not good.

It requires a good look around the radiator when hot and cold with a really good bright light and or some blue paper towel as it shows up even very small amounts of water going darker when wet ? So can be stuffed in around the bottom hose, left until next day then look for water on the paper?-

 

[Fiat568]

Many thanks for all of your replies.
I'm not sure why the mechanics haven't/didn't consider any of these when the car went through tests twice.I
ve tried to look under the car but cant see much.
I can see the wet patch from birds eye view and ive taken a picture but the patch doesn't really sure.
If
you look at the picture the patch is repeatedly appearing after driving and parking underneath the black box like thing with a moon shape cut out - sorry ive no idea what this is -the patch is forming underneath this area which is a little further back from the bottle. Left side of car facing front window. Driver's side.
THE COOLANT IS STILL DROPPING LEVEL and I think this recurring patch is something to do with it.


The garage didn't see any patches nor any leaks yet the coolant levels drop as explained.
If I could somehow confirm that it is a coolant leak but in the area that ive mentioned that would help.
I wouldn't feel confident adding a substance /dye into it but the idea behind it is great!