Technical 2010 Diesel 4x4 random stalling / engine cut-out

[onehillside]

My daughter's much beloved 2010 4x4 has a wierd engine stalling / cutting out issue - usually on an up-slope, the engine stalls and cuts out. Last time it happened was on the up-ramp in a car-park - engine dies, regardless of revs, then refuses to start / completely dead. She was pushed into a space. When I (dad) arrived - connected it straight up to battery-jump-pack and she started straight away. Drove it the 20 miles home without issue, idle is fine.

Has happened before. Once when driving it completely cut-out - though I suspect that might have been linked to the fact the scuttle drains were blocked and there was about 3 inches of freezing water sloshing about. The other time, similarly when pulling up to a junction, stalled and cut-out. Though in that instance, she took key out, back in, and then it restarted.

it's got a pretty much brand-new battery. I can't reproduce the issue - will happily do motorway journey or short trip to the shops. Always seems to start on the button. It's not long been serviced. No warning lights. No other electrical issues that I can seen.

Any pointers before I hand it over to the garage?

 

[bugsymike]

My daughter's much beloved 2010 4x4 has a wierd engine stalling / cutting out issue - usually on an up-slope, the engine stalls and cuts out. Last time it happened was on the up-ramp in a car-park - engine dies, regardless of revs, then refuses to start / completely dead. She was pushed into a space. When I (dad) arrived - connected it straight up to battery-jump-pack and she started straight away. Drove it the 20 miles home without issue, idle is fine.

Has happened before. Once when driving it completely cut-out - though I suspect that might have been linked to the fact the scuttle drains were blocked and there was about 3 inches of freezing water sloshing about. The other time, similarly when pulling up to a junction, stalled and cut-out. Though in that instance, she took key out, back in, and then it restarted.

it's got a pretty much brand-new battery. I can't reproduce the issue - will happily do motorway journey or short trip to the shops. Always seems to start on the button. It's not long been serviced. No warning lights. No other electrical issues that I can seen.

Any pointers before I hand it over to the garage?

Intermittent fault always the hardest to find, so unless the dealer has a service bulletin regarding a known issue or they are very lucky to put there finger right on it, you can end up paying for lots of labour with little result. Dodgy fuel safety cut out, try different/spare immobiliser key (though usually for safety reasons once running they shouldn't immobilise) , blockage in fuel or relay , have you been able to read ECU to see if any stored/pending error codes to give a clue? There have been people on Forum with corroded wiring/ plugs at ECU and also under battery case area, so maybe checking all electrical connectors and spraying them with switch cleaner and reconnecting.
All these are general things, maybe other members have more specific knowledge.

 

[onehillside]

Intermittent fault always the hardest to find

indeed. and something keen to avoid - though I trust our local garage not to run things up too much - hence all pointers appreciated. I've got a code-reader though not sure how sophisticated it is / what level of info (if any) i'll get back vs. the garage one. I'll give that a go later today. I'll have a dig about to see if I can see any notable corrosion / points where things might have come loose.

I saw that some cars have an ECU connection issue (cable-ties to sort/help etc), but wasn't sure whether this is relevant to my daughter's car.

Oh, and we only have the one key - would be surprised if it's that as you say - seems unlikely it'd cause issues whilst driving.

 

[DaveMcT]

Dirty MAF sensor is possible. But also take a look inside the inlet manifold. Disconnect the intercooler to manifold air pipe and use a mirror to look at the manifold intake. There is a bullet ended pipe from the EGR sitting in the centre which should be clean. If it's clogged (like many are) the restricted airflow will stop the engine at tickover. It's overcome by turbo pressure but power will be down and it will be throwing soot out the back.

 

[koalar]

When I (dad) arrived - connected it straight up to battery-jump-pack and she started straight away.

Reads as didn’t start until the jump pack was used ?

Or was it just the car had had a rest and not retested before the jump pack added

We really don’t have information to move forward

By listening for the fuel tank pump and looking at the REV counter we can confirm or eliminate the low pressure pump and crank sensor

If it starts with a battery pack but not without we are looking at power, ground leads or battery or not enough cranking speed to atomise the diesel correctly via the hp pump.

 

[RalphM]

Does it have the same air filter box as the 70 hp's were it can gape
at the back? if so and it is then water from the scuttle can get into
the air box and it doesn't take a lot to give the symptoms you describe,
seal the box with some duct tape as a test see if this sorts the problem.

 

[onehillside]

Reads as didn’t start until the jump pack was used ?

Or was it just the car had had a rest and not retested before the jump pack added

sorry if not clear.

When it happened as my wife was driving - she said it cut out (whilst driving) - downhill. No response / wholly dead (no power steering, was able to pull in fine). Took key out, back in, turned and started fine (and ran) 100% ok. I couldn't find anything wrong beyond the inches deep water in the skuttle so assumed that it was related to water ingress / damp wiring. Never had an issue after I dug out the crud from the drains and cleaned everything throughly.

When my daughter got stuck on the ramp she say it stalled / cut out and again, not even trying to turn over. The carpark attendant also couldn't get it to start / get anything response. I don't know whether tataking it back to zero, so to speak, by taking out the key etc would have worked (Stupidly I didn't try when I arrived - just lifted the bonnet, hooked up the battery pack, sat in and she started on the button. There was a bit of traffic by then so some time pressure!

rev counter is fine. she idles ok. The really frustrating thing is that I ran the car without any issue at all for about 3 months - not a hiccup. Daughter is convinced it's linked to being on an slope if that helps - presumably points to be it being somewhat fuel related. She runs as close to a full tank at all times as possible so it's not low-fuel.

 

[onehillside]

Does it have the same air filter box as the 70 hp's were it can gape
at the back? if so and it is then water from the scuttle can get into
the air box and it doesn't take a lot to give the symptoms you describe,
seal the box with some duct tape as a test see if this sorts the problem.

will give this a check over and see whether there's anything there - given it was absolutely flooded it's wholly possible...

 

[A3jeroen]

Diesel? Fuelfilter seals 100%? Might be sucking air in otherwise. Had a Brava with a knackered bearing on (IIRC) PS pump. This stopped the starter from turning the engine over. A little rocking in gear or waiting a while made it go again.
If turning over ok, but not starting, cranksensor is a suspect as well. Sometimes they work when cooled down and don't when warm.

gr J

 

[koalar]

Does it have the same air filter box as the 70 hp's were it can gape
at the back? if so and it is then water from the scuttle can get into
the air box and it doesn't take a lot to give the symptoms you describe,
seal the box with some duct tape as a test see if this sorts the problem.

Here’s the discussion on it

Although it’s normally associated with white smoke ( not always)

Have I siliconed the correct part of my Panda Multijet? (Common Problem White Smoke) | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I came on here before asking about my 2007 Panda blowing white smoke and I was advised about the common problem about the little screwhole in the centre of the black plastic below the wipers allowing in water. I've taken a photo of where I've silliconed (see red circles). Have I done the right...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[koalar]

rev counter is fine.

I am talking about when it’s not starting

If you look carefully while cranking

the crank sensor is sending a signal to the ECU

and the ECU is sending signal to body computer

and the body computer is sending a signal to the dash

and the REV counter will move

Just by looking at the counter while cranking the engine tells you quite a lot about what’s working or not

 

[onehillside]

Here’s the discussion on it

Although it’s normally associated with white smoke ( not always)

Cheers. Will have a read through!

Diesel? Fuelfilter seals 100%? Might be sucking air in otherwise. Had a Brava with a knackered bearing on (IIRC) PS pump. This stopped the starter from turning the engine over. A little rocking in gear or waiting a while made it go again.
If turning over ok, but not starting, cranksensor is a suspect as well. Sometimes they work when cooled down and don't when warm.

Yes, diesel. When it happens (not that's happened to me), then apparently it stalls and properly stops / dies completely (rather than turning over but not catching).. Will have dig around and see what's what.

I am talking about when it’s not starting

If you look carefully while cranking

the crank sensor is sending a signal to the ECU

and the ECU is sending signal to body computer

and the body computer is sending a signal to the dash

and the REV counter will move

Just by looking at the counter while cranking the engine tells you quite a lot about what’s working or not

Ahhh - therein lies the issue with the 'intermittent' nature - I can't for the life of me reproduce it (yet)!



thanks for the suggestions - too cold and wet today to get onto the driveway but hopefully I'll get a chance ASAP as she's itching to get back out in the car but doesn't trust it...

 

[Cinq999]

Assuming it wouldn't even try and turn over until the jump pack was attached, I'd be looking at an electrical issue.

Regardless of any issues with sensors, air in fuel etc, if the starter motor gets power, the engine should at least try and crank over.

If it doesn't even crank, I'd look at main earth cables as a start, it's a fairly common issue for it to cause issues.

 

[koalar]

Right read through the thread again

We have cutting out at junction

Cutting out on hills

no crank

Crank but no start

Very little connect them

Do we have one or two faults

The earth lead on the gearbox only deals with charging and starter

The earth lead on the chassis rail only deals with engine and body computer but not starter

Battery and both it’s terminals deal with both as does the ignition switch.


Slope sounds a bit like a battery I know you said it’s newish

 

[onehillside]

Crank but no start

I don't think this is a symptom of the current issue. When it went, there was subsequently no crank - it cuts out / stalls, regardless of revs and then dies on it's backside. My wife took the key out, put it back in and away she went without issue, I don't think my daughter did that - it was just DOA, neither her or the carpark attendants could get it started so it was pushed to a point where traffic could just start to squeeze past. Stupidly I didn't ask her to do that and when I arrived at the scene the emphasis was on getting her up and away ASAP - hooked up the battery pack and she cranked and started first time and happily ran the journey home without a hiccup.

Slope sounds a bit like a battery I know you said it’s newish

Yes. I put a new Bosch one in around October before it was MOT'ed and serviced.

Thanks all for the suggestions. The car is parked up on the (exposed) driveway and it's currently blowing a bit of a gale but when things settle down I've got a good list to work through (to the best of my abilities and facilities!).

To my limited mechanical knowledge the fact it's so intermittent speaks to something being corroded / loose, or fluids sloshing around from when the skuttle was underwater.

 

[koalar]

If it’s always no crank it changes things considerably

If it’s not got start stop

The ignition switch is powered by F23, When you turn the key to start the car 12v is supplied to the solenoid

1 Battery
2 Positive lead to starter motor
3 Negative lead on gearbox
4 Small lead to the solenoid
5 Fuse 23
6 Ignition switch
7 stater motor

Are the only bit required to make the car crank

You can unplug the engine and body computer and these simpler cars will still crank. In fact I disconnect the engine computer (ECU) to preform a compression test


Being intermittent we need a way to move forward

The engine moves backwards and forwards when on a slop and during braking.

I would probably start by pulling the cover off the fuse box and pull F23 and check for water or corrosion on its terminals, unlikely but worth checking while here. Then pull one of the main relays to stop the car from firing up while cranking like the fuel pump relay

Then get someone to crank the car while I wiggled the battery terminals, cables and the earth lead under the battery tray. Hopefully you will be able to introduce the no crank situation

 

[onehillside]

by way of an update - finally had a (brief) spell of not-rain! I got under the bonnet; checked fuses and fusebox - all good, airbox, ditto. Wiggled the battery terminals, cables and the earth lead under the battery tray with fuse out as per ^^. Couldn't reproduce the issue. The rear-most cable into the ecu had come loose from it's clip so I fastened that back in but couldn't see anything else amiss.

she started on the button after a good 10 days sat outside in torrential rain and - before xmas - v.cold temps. Drove 20 miles without issue. Daughter then drove her back home - got 10 miles in and suddenly power-steering failed with warning lights for power steering, ESP and hill-hold (?). Stopped the engine, key out, key back in again, started on the button and again, and all fine for the rest of the journey home.

this points to battery connections / earths? The battery is nearly new Bosch unit. The only difference between my driving it and Ruby's is that she'll have had the heater on full blast and the stereo going...Don't know if related to original issue but all seems like a massive coincidence.

It'll be off to the garage as soon as they can fit it in - really needs to be looked at in the dry...

thanks all!

 

[koalar]

by way of an update - finally had a (brief) spell of not-rain! I got under the bonnet; checked fuses and fusebox - all good, airbox, ditto. Wiggled the battery terminals, cables and the earth lead under the battery tray with fuse out as per ^^. Couldn't reproduce the issue. The rear-most cable into the ecu had come loose from it's clip so I fastened that back in but couldn't see anything else amiss.

Not sure I understand this. The ECU plugs are a lever and cam system. They shouldn’t ever work loose

Is something broken or someone not fitted it correctly

she started on the button after a good 10 days sat outside in torrential rain and - before xmas - v.cold temps. Drove 20 miles without issue. Daughter then drove her back home - got 10 miles in and suddenly power-steering failed with warning lights for power steering, ESP and hill-hold (?). Stopped the engine, key out, key back in again, started on the button and again, and all fine for the rest of the journey home.

this points to battery connections / earths? The battery is nearly new Bosch unit. The only difference between my driving it and Ruby's is that she'll have had the heater on full blast and the stereo going...Don't know if related to original issue but all seems like a massive coincidence.

Yes almost certainly a cable, dirty/loose battery terminals or a fail on fit battery

It'll be off to the garage as soon as they can fit it in - really needs to be looked at in the dry...

thanks all!

 

[onehillside]

Not sure I understand this. The ECU plugs are a lever and cam system. They shouldn’t ever work loose

The cable nearest the bulkhead has a clip that holds it steady. The cable was loose, not the plug...Apologies if unclear.

Yes almost certainly a cable, dirty/loose battery terminals or a fail on fit battery

I'll see if the garage can spot anything awry. The problem with the intermittent nature is that it makes it nigh on impossible to determine the exact issue or when it's bene sorted. In the interim I'm going to take the battery out (again), give everything a good clean (again) and ensure everything is properly dry and fastened down.

 

[DaveMcT]

Keep some jump leads in the car. when it stalls again, clip a lead between engine and battery negative. If it now starts, you've proved an engine earth lead has failed.