HI all,


hoping you guys might be able to shed some light on this issue, or throw some ideas our way?


PhilipB82 popped round today with his 5 door Stilo and we set about plugging in my laptop as I have a full registered version of MuliECUScan. Firstly, Phil has a few niggles that are proving hard to diagnose, he has the car booked in a garage in a few weeks to have the dashboard display unit tested but im not convinced its at fault - he gets an intermitted Warning light - the one dead centre in the dash, yellow triangle with a ! in the middle. This triangle seems more evident in the rain, or when its wet/cold BUT it doesn't light fully, and isn't accompanied by an error message - possibilities are Oil Level Sensor Failure, Coolant Level Sensor Failure or Oil Pressure Sensor Failure.


Phil also has some minor flat spots at certain rpm, seemingly at low revs say when at junctions setting off, or at higher revs on the motorway for example. The flat spots are not accompanied by an error light or warning.


SO, with that in mind, I hooked up my laptop and checked the codes, only one stored was for the MAF but that was an old code and the MAF has been replaced - I have cleared the code. I went through as many tests/actuator tests as I felt relevant, and everything checked out. Things like the boost solenoid valve were within parameters (40%-100%) and boost pressure the same within parameters. All actuator tests were fine, dashboard test fine (hence why I feel the dash is fine and the intermittent warning triangle is something else).


looking in the engine bay, I didn't find anything majorly obviously wrong. I did however find the air intake pipe from the front of the car into the top of the air box broken. Basically, the bend that joins the front grille is broken off, so just points into the engine bay sucking in hot air - could this be causing any issues?


I found the inlet control valve to be quite oily (I may have the wrong name, but a photo is below) and quite a bit of oil below it over the thermostat etc, I gave it a wipe and asked phil to check again after a drive. As this controls the I/C inlet jobby (again, totally forgot the name), if the oil is from something important could this cause any flat spots?


The other thing I found was a "box" wrapped in duck tape and a hose goes from that into the turbo pipes/air pipes. On my car (three door) the same pipe goes off towards the I/C, where on Phils its cable tied on the drivers side under the radiator, totally exposed. I have no idea what it is, see photo below, can anyone advise what the box is?


Another thing we found, was that the boost solenoid valve although seemingly ok, has a botch job done on the lower pipe - essentially some sort of hardened plastic has been used to form around the pipe to keep it fitted to the valve. During tests, the valve appears fine though, but we didn't drive at speed with the laptop tested so unsure if that would make a difference.

the pic on the left looks like it could be the vaour trap that's usually joined to the bottom of the airfilter housing, the hose should join the turbo inlet pipe around same place as the crankcase breather pipe joins turbo inlet pipe.
if it is that looks like has been damaged and repaired , is it airtight?
ii have seen people replace it with a plastic water bottle , as long as its airtight anything can be used.
if air is leaking under all that tape its probably giving a low maf reading.
what maf readings did you get during testing?
at idle youd expect around 485mg/I with maf not open, if maf opens could be down as low as 250-300mg/I, log a few minutes and you would see egr open and shut.
the oily thing is the vacuum operated butterfly valve that closes on engine shutdown to help stop run on and shudder, but I believe it also may close partially in operation with the egr so when egr opens the butterfly may close to restrict fresh air in and assist engine to pull in egr gasses instead.
im not 100% but I know people have removed from there completely with no downside, does it move to fully open on start up and fully close at shutdown ,so as a test can you disable or lock in fully open position.
has the oil leaked into the actuator and stopping it opening / closing normally.
and I think the oil is not normally there , it has probably leaked out from the airintake pipe and run through the spindle or leaked out of the oring as it joins.
does it use much oil? can only be coming from turbo compressor seal or crankcase breather pipe.
id blank the egr to see if cures hesitation also check if that's vapour trap and its totally sealed up(has to be airtight or watertight)
im sure ive seen oily flap thing before years ago on here.

edit just been out to check that flap actuator, mine may be different as 16v jtd(looks on otherside to start) but basically it is sprung shut by the actuator spring(or a torsion spring inside spindle?) and opened with vacuum im nearly positive.
anyway heres a vid to give idea of spring pressure and speed(incase yours is full of oil)

thank you so much for that response, brilliant


as far as I could see when testing, the actuator was opening and closing normally, MAF readings were good but this was all at idle and revving the engine a bit - so not the best way to test things, but the laptop did show everything to be within tolerances.


The box wrapped in duck tape however was all floppy etc and I doubt its air tight but I cant be 100% on that. I will advise Phil to get it looked at. If all that is required is an air tight container of some sort, im sure the box can be fixed or replaced properly!


I have asked phil to monitor the oil near the actuator - I have said if more appears, then it needs looking at so thanks again for the advice re the breather pipes etc, that helps a lot.


I believe the EGR has been blanked off, though I don't know if its been done with one, two or three blanking plates (I used three, one at the bottom pipe, two at the top on the egr).


The point about the box though has me thinking, if you are right, and it affects the MAF readings in some way, perhaps that plus the broken air inlet pipe into the air box are together contributing to this random intermittent flat spot issue...?!

I added a video of flap in post above
also as a bit of a guide I have found during many logs during tuning that once your into boost range ,a working map sensor and a working maf sensor and good system no leaks etc
divide map by maf and should = around 2, like this log pic

as you can see I had working egr when I did this log and with egr operational the answer is not 2(where maf is only 370mg/I)
eg boost 2300mbar maf would be around 1150mg/i
if your egr is blanked and when on boost values are not near 2 it might suggest air is bypassing maf (especially if new maf)
I don't think the inlet into the airbox /snorkel damage would affect it enough to cause stutter, it would be losing power top end with warm air but in this weather even the engine bay will be fairly cool on the move.
maf calculates airmass from flow and temperature but I think it would have to be very hot to drop maf readings due to air being hot.

as far as formula above goes maybe try logging a couple of runs on your jtd first (if your is all ok with no issues) just to see if the 8v jtd is different
from the head not breathing as well as the 16v.
then you will have a better idea if you log philipb's again

also how does it compare regarding desired maf airflow and actual maf airflow how close do they follow? +/- 50mg/I

ill have to re check the log I saved, but it all looked ok. Ill have a look tomorrow and post back!

sussexa said:

the pic on the left looks like it could be the vaour trap that's usually joined to the bottom of the airfilter housing, the hose should join the turbo inlet pipe around same place as the crankcase breather pipe joins turbo inlet pipe.
if it is that looks like has been damaged and repaired , is it airtight?
ii have seen people replace it with a plastic water bottle , as long as its airtight anything can be used.
if air is leaking under all that tape its probably giving a low maf reading.
what maf readings did you get during testing?
at idle youd expect around 485mg/I with maf not open, if maf opens could be down as low as 250-300mg/I, log a few minutes and you would see egr open and shut.

Click to expand...

Hello


I've been to Fiat to price some things up and I asked for this vapour trap. I've been quoted for a vacuum tank, is this the same thing?


Thanks


Phil

philipb82 said:

I've been to Fiat to price some things up and I asked for this vapour trap. I've been quoted for a vacuum tank, is this the same thing?

Click to expand...

No... the vapour trap is melded to the bottom of the air filter. You would have to buy a complete new air filter housing to get one from Fiat.

The vacuum tank is fitted at the back of the engine and supplies vacuum to the turbo vane actuator solenoid and the idle shut off valve.
.

So the picture of the box with the tape around it isn't the vapour trap.....?


Phil

If , that is if it is the vapour trap i wouldnt spend on new bits.
You can try something like this to test first or see how long it lasts ?
At least youd know its airtight
Might be a better fit with lid on but drilled out to let oil into bottle.
Look around for a little bottle (shorter)with larger top.


is it or isn't it ? you will have to tell us you have the car there, where does the rubber hose its attached to go to ?

sussexa said:

If , that is if it is the vapour trap i wouldnt spend on new bits.
You can try something like this to test first or see how long it lasts ?
At least youd know its airtight
Might be a better fit with lid on but drilled out to let oil into bottle.
Look around for a little bottle (shorter)with larger top.
View attachment 126065

is it or isn't it ? you will have to tell us you have the car there, where does the rubber hose its attached to go to ?

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.


I will try something like that. I know I have the car with me but reason I ask is because I don't know what a vapour trap is, I don't know what that box is! I'll have a look and see where that hose is attached too.


Phil

the hose from the taped up box (suspected vapour trap) goes to the air intake hose/turbo hose..


so if you were to look down between at the pipework coming from the MAF, the parts that go off into the inlet and turbo, the hose attaches there. On my three door, the hose goes off under the airbox, on Phils it goes off in the opposite direction under the drivers side front of engine bay at the bottom.

philipb82 said:

So the picture of the box with the tape around it isn't the vapour trap.....?

Click to expand...

Your picture looks like the vapour trap, but it looks as though it's broken off of the air filter housing and been taped to the radiator cowling.

First picture below is a new air filter housing with the vapour trap in it's correct position at the bottom of the housing.

Second picture shows what the vapour trap looks like in it's correct position from under the car. Obviously it shouldn't have the hole in the bottom of it.
.

Davren said:

Your picture looks like the vapour trap, but it looks as though it's broken off of the air filter housing and been taped to the radiator cowling.

First picture below is a new air filter housing with the vapour trap in it's correct position at the bottom of the housing.

Second picture shows what the vapour trap looks like in it's correct position from under the car. Obviously it shouldn't have the hole in the bottom of it.
.

Click to expand...

Thats brilliant thanks Davren. So it looks like it has been broke off the bottom of the air filter housing and relocated for whatever reason. So i have 2 options then, i could do what sussexa suggested or get a new air filter housing.

At least i now know what i'm looking at

Phil

very interesting. I wonder the air filter housing is missing that cap as well (leaving the filter wide open?) or is badly taped up letting in moisture?

Would an air filter housing from a 2003 or 2004 JTD fit my 2002 (52) Stilo?


Phil

id double check, but this advert suggests it will:


http://www.fiatalfadealerparts.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=463


I would NOT pay that price.

The airfilter housing was changed early 2003, but I think it was only to enable it to accomodate a slightly different filter element. The later element had a sheet of sponge glued on the front of it.

Fiat part number for the early housing was substituted by the later part number, so both housing must be interchangeable.

If you get the later housing for an earlier car, you may need to get the later filter element for it too.
.

I'm struggling to find an air filter box. I've looked on the net and emailed a few breakers and so far no luck. Will an air box from another Fiat JTD model fit?


Thanks for the link Clivvy, that's the best price I've got so far!


I've put a wanted ad in the classified section aswell.


Phil

I have an old airbox in garage I bought for some mods, just been to check and supprise supprise the vapour trap isn't on that one either.
I personnaly wouldn't be in a rush to re instal something that fails so often and will end up where you are now.
try the bottle with a jubilee clip and fix to something so it cant drop under car and see how it goes.
in the meantime you can have a look at the damage on that one under the plastic bag it may be easily repairable. and could be stuck back to airbox if you insist.
looks like originally its fixed on there by 3 small strips of plastic welding or bonding that's melted the plastics together.
no wonder they break off so often, then no under tray, dangles under car and breaks
the pipe inner diameter is approx. 28-30mm I think.
looking on ebay you can pick up an alloy camping/cycling bottle for a quid or so, if you want something sturdier, no idea what size the necks are though.
you may find one in pound shop and you could measure neck.
or even a bottle of injector cleaner(will be sturdier plastic), pour in tank and use bottle, win win.
you havnt proved yet this is the cause of your problems, I don't wanna see you spending money on airboxs and stuff and then saying you still have a problem and spending on something else.

sussexa said:

I have an old airbox in garage I bought for some mods, just been to check and supprise supprise the vapour trap isn't on that one either.
I personnaly wouldn't be in a rush to re instal something that fails so often and will end up where you are now.
try the bottle with a jubilee clip and fix to something so it cant drop under car and see how it goes.
in the meantime you can have a look at the damage on that one under the plastic bag it may be easily repairable. and could be stuck back to airbox if you insist.
looks like originally its fixed on there by 3 small strips of plastic welding or bonding that's melted the plastics together.
no wonder they break off so often, then no under tray, dangles under car and breaks
the pipe inner diameter is approx. 28-30mm I think.
looking on ebay you can pick up an alloy camping/cycling bottle for a quid or so, if you want something sturdier, no idea what size the necks are though.
you may find one in pound shop and you could measure neck.
or even a bottle of injector cleaner(will be sturdier plastic), pour in tank and use bottle, win win.
you havnt proved yet this is the cause of your problems, I don't wanna see you spending money on airboxs and stuff and then saying you still have a problem and spending on something else.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.


I will check the box and probably replace it with a bottle as you suggested. The only thing that concerns me is if the vapour trap has come away from the air box, could it have damaged the air box? If there is a crack or hole in the bottom that could explain my intermittent flat spots etc.... I've read some threads on here about power loss and the air box and vapour trap is mentioned as a possible cause.


Anyway I will replace the vapour trap box and see what happens.


Phil