Hi there, I'm running out of hair and I didn't have a lot to start with!

I've got starting issues with our motorhome, a 2005 Autotrail Dakota with a Fiat 2.8 jtd engine.

It all began a couple of weeks ago when I tried to start it, nothing bar a small click. Although the battery is connected to a CTEK charger when not in use, I thought it was the battery - it appeared to be the original. It showed a healthy voltage but I thought it simply might not have enough current to turn it over.
Replacement battery fitted, not a jot of difference.

Has to be a starter issue? ran a line from positive side of battery to S terminal on solonoid, nothing. Tried starting with key again, then noticed on the voltage panel, the battery voltage had dropped to 0.8 volts which would return to normal after 30 secs. At the same time there was a clunk as if a relay had disengaged - sound came from top centre of engine bay, quite possibly transmitted from passenger compartment.

Cleaned all earths, starter connections, positive terminal fuses, no duff fuses in any of the 3 fuse boxes. No difference.

Removed starter stripped and cleaned - solonoid free and brushes healthy. Cleaned and lubricated, bench tested, now it turns over but won't start!

I cannot (I've only got 1 working ear) hear the lift pump working, for now I'm assuming it won't start because there's no fuel. I've still got this massive voltage drop when starting along with jumping instrument needles when I stop trying to start it. Now my hazard warning switch is buzzing away when I try to operate them and what looks like a preheater/glow plug warning symbol lighting up - I've never, AFAIK, ever seen this lit!

There is a TOAD alarm/immob fitted, it's old and was fitted in 2005 - apparently it's a system with 2 immobiliser circuits fitted. I can't get any info' on how the system works or what circuit it cuts out...I'd have thought the starting and fuel circuits?
The standard Fiat immobiliser appears to be working - the light goes out as it should - so now problems, I think, with that.

My first thought is to remove this TOAD system. I've also got it in my head to change the starter solonoid...for no other reason than someone else did that to cure a no-start situation!

I'm sure there must be a solonoid to start the in tank fuel pump (lift pump?) If yes, where is it? Again I'm associating this with the sound coming from top of the bulkhead area of engine bay when I stop turning it over

A little frustrated and almost feel I'm clutching at straws now...any advice or guidance beyond removing the after market alarm system would be appreciated hugely.
I'd have it off to a repair shop if I thought it could be recovered there. I live on a hill and it takes a bit of to and fro'ing to get it out of the drive and onto the road!

Thanks

Solve one thing before you move onto the next.

The lift pump should run for approx 20 seconds after turning on the ignition, if it doesn't the first thing to check is the inertia switch behind the battery, if thats not the issue then you'll have to trace the wires from the pump to see if theres an inline relay controlled by the toad.

Thanks for the tip corcai...should've mentioned in my original post that I have checked the inertia switch, deliberately tripped and reset.

The lift pump, how is that accessed? Is there a panel in the floor above the tank or is it a drain & drop tank job?

Any other options to get to the bottom of this

For what it's worth, I think they have an access hatch in the floor between the seats over the fuel tank.
I'm sorry I can't contribute anything really helpful.
The whole thing sounds rather nasty and I hope you can get it sorted soon.

jacinabox said:

Thanks for the tip corcai...should've mentioned in my original post that I have checked the inertia switch, deliberately tripped and reset.

The lift pump, how is that accessed? Is there a panel in the floor above the tank or is it a drain & drop tank job?

Any other options to get to the bottom of this

Click to expand...

Yes panel by the passengers feet 4 screws first cover, then remove the padding and another 4 I think for second cover then you will have access to the connector on the lift pump, no need to remove the lift pump.

Pin 3 should be ground, this is grounded via the inertia switch.
Pin 4 should be 12v for 20 or so seconds when the ignition is turned on this 12v is via relay t10 in the main fusebox, fed by and adjacent to 15A fuse f21 I think.

Would have to get out the wiring diagram to tell you any more.

Thank you both!

That's something useful to look at tomorrow - though I have a niggling feeling that it's the Toad system that's the root of the problem, especially as the alarm system has a connection to the indicators (and I assume it'll have an effect on the hazards too which are sick) just have to try and identify where, and what 2 circuits are immobilised - natural to assume the fuel is one of them.

corcai - the electrical diagrams, are they linkable or could you point me in a direction to the source please. Lack of tech' info is frustrating to say the least!

Thanks

jacinabox said:

Thank you both!

That's something useful to look at tomorrow - though I have a niggling feeling that it's the Toad system that's the root of the problem, especially as the alarm system has a connection to the indicators (and I assume it'll have an effect on the hazards too which are sick) just have to try and identify where, and what 2 circuits are immobilised - natural to assume the fuel is one of them.

corcai - the electrical diagrams, are they linkable or could you point me in a direction to the source please. Lack of tech' info is frustrating to say the least!

Thanks

Click to expand...

You can download the iso of the manual here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/432736-ecu-problem.html?p=4129487

Thanks guys, this thread makes really interesting reading. These small "tricks of the trade" in solving these niggly problems are really useful, as sometimes the cure is that simple, but if you're unsure on the best likely cause and don't know where to look, it can make the task difficult. Cheers
(P.S. jacinabox, I hope you'll soon solve this!)

corcai - thanks for the link, that'll be a huge help
Not had a chance to do anything just now - snow flurries are enough to dampen my enthusiasm!

At least I've got a sensible plan now...check lift pump function and if that doesn't work it'll be bye-bye Toad.

I'll give an update when more becomes clear

Time for an update; only manage a short period each day to try and sort my issues...

*I do have a functioning fuel lift pump, neither a friend (with two working ears) or myself could hear it running. I have fuel passing through filter, injection pump, fuel rail and to injectors. Loosened injector pipe and there is fuel being delivered with engine being turned over.
* I did have odd starter issues a few days ago, starter wouldn't turn and battery voltage dropped to 0.8v for around 30 seconds and then it would return to a healthy 12.8v. Battery had been on a CTEK charger overnight and the charger unit indicated the battery was charged.
* Several attempts to start resulted in the same thing. During the voltage drop to 0.8v I moved a the starter pos' lead from the battery and the voltage returned to normal. Tie-wrapped to this cable is the cabling/relays (2) and fuses for the split charging circuit. Tried to start again and it was the moving of the split charge cable that caused the voltage to return to normal. Pulled the relays apart and one was heavily corroded. Two new relays fitted and the engine now spins over at a healthy speed - but won't start.
*Every earth point is bright and clean, additional earth cables fitted between battery neg', engine block and body - still no start. no smoke at exhaust so assume no fuel being injected.
*Battery pos' plate type fuse box - cleaned, all fuse contacts point clean, fuses intact.
*Every engine sensor - MAF, fuel rail pressure, coolant temp', cam shaft position... there's a couple on the HP injection pump and crank sensor to look at yet, but every one, so far, has been corrosion free.

all the fuses in the engine bay fuse box are intact (fuse box front of engine, gearbox side) Relays? i don't know..."corcai" I've tried using the link you supplied for diagrams. Computer stuff isn't my strong point, but I may have another source of info' Thank you anyway

I've got an Autel Maxiscan MS509 scanner that I've connected up. It's telling me I've got two codes stored, but when toggling the unit to read them, it's telling me there are no codes! Works fine on my other vehicles.

I'm still thinking this TOAD alarm/immob is a possible cause of my troubles. One day the engine starts without any trouble and the next it doesn't.
Even though the engine turns over well I'm still getting dancing instrument needles and a buzzing from the hazard warning switch...the TOAD alarm use's two immob' circuits and there is a connection to the indicators for alarm state indication...what circuits is it cutting out, apparently not the starter side or the fuel system!

My thought is two try and remove this, having removed the lower drivers side dash I'm having serious doubts, especially as there is a tracker system in there too. The TOAD system appears to arm/disarm according to the LED, but is it really!

Finally, it's obvious I need to get any codes read and go from there to determine if I need an electrical or diesel specialist.

For now though, if anyone has any ideas on what else I could check - I'd be grateful to hear them please!

Sorry to hear your starting woes.
If it's like my 2.8jtd (same year) motorhome it's not OBD 2 compliant and whilst you my get some code data showing it doesn't mean much and won't help much with your diagnostics.
In the end I bought a Multieuscan package comprising software and a couple of leads from Gendan (very helpful blokes) and got loads of data and codes that pointed me in the right direction to get my problem solved. There's some threads on this forum about AlfaOBD diagnostics but I didn't have much success with it.
After fit immobilisers and alarms are a PITA and very prone to causing the very problems you're experiencing when you have ruled out all the usual non starting suspects. If you have the Toad installation data I would bin it and try and get the vehicle back to standard before spending more time trying to juggle another variable you don't need.
Short of being very unlucky diesels don't just start one day and not the next without some clues of previous starting history. Most of the time it's down to the maintenance basics like fuel filters and ignoring what the engine's trying to tell you when it's running. Looked after the JTD engine is pretty robust and the Bosch electronics whilst complicated (compared to the direct injection version) are tried and tested on millions of vehicles.
Hope you solve the problem and please keep us posted when you get back on the road again and the solution!

A little frustrated and almost feel I'm clutching at straws now...any advice or guidance beyond removing the after market alarm system would be appreciated hugely.
I'd have it off to a repair shop if I thought it could be recovered there. I live on a hill and it takes a bit of to and fro'ing to get it out of the drive and onto the road!

Thanks[/QUOTE]

Hi. The 0.8 volts is weird.

Where is the vehicle based..?

Charlie . Oxford

toyogran said:

Sorry to hear your starting woes.
If it's like my 2.8jtd (same year) motorhome it's not OBD 2 compliant and whilst you my get some code data showing it doesn't mean much and won't help much with your diagnostics.
In the end I bought a Multieuscan package comprising software and a couple of leads from Gendan (very helpful blokes) and got loads of data and codes that pointed me in the right direction to get my problem solved. There's some threads on this forum about AlfaOBD diagnostics but I didn't have much success with it.
After fit immobilisers and alarms are a PITA and very prone to causing the very problems you're experiencing when you have ruled out all the usual non starting suspects. If you have the Toad installation data I would bin it and try and get the vehicle back to standard before spending more time trying to juggle another variable you don't need.
Short of being very unlucky diesels don't just start one day and not the next without some clues of previous starting history. Most of the time it's down to the maintenance basics like fuel filters and ignoring what the engine's trying to tell you when it's running. Looked after the JTD engine is pretty robust and the Bosch electronics whilst complicated (compared to the direct injection version) are tried and tested on millions of vehicles.
Hope you solve the problem and please keep us posted when you get back on the road again and the solution!

Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughts!

I think an investment in the software and leads you mentioned will be a worthwhile investment and would be a next sensible step...what issues did you discover to get your up and running again?

Never a hint that any issues were waiting to bite me. Ran very well and probably over-maintained. If the Gods of Fiat motorhomes were good to me I'd have been happy with an iffy earth to deal with...but I'm not good eneough it seems!

varesecrazy said:

A little frustrated and almost feel I'm clutching at straws now...any advice or guidance beyond removing the after market alarm system would be appreciated hugely.
I'd have it off to a repair shop if I thought it could be recovered there. I live on a hill and it takes a bit of to and fro'ing to get it out of the drive and onto the road!

Thanks

Click to expand...

Hi. The 0.8 volts is weird.

Where is the vehicle based..?

Charlie . Oxford[/QUOTE]

The 0.8v only occurred when the starter wouldn't turn over the engine. Changing the two relays associated with split charge system allowed the engine to turn over just at should, but fails to start - not a hint of smoke or sniff of diesel from the exhaust, so injectors not being triggered.

If the question regarding vehicle location was going towards an offer of a look-see; well, a little too far from you being in Dundee! But thanks anyway

for completeness.. it's still worth trying another decent battery - as the fuel rail pressures are generated by cranking speed,
low speed = reduced pressures

another potential is the crank angle sensor( cambelt end..near sump,)

Charlie

The Multieuscan diagnostics revealed inadequate rail pressure when cranking. These engines need about 300 bar to be registered at the ecu whilst cranking to allow successful starting. If the starter (or its associated electrical circuit) isn't up to scratch you won't generate sufficient rail pressure and satisfy the ecu criteria.
Have tried a tow start and see if you can crank the engine faster?
If all else fails try a sniff of Easystart (but don't overuse it as it effectively washes any oil lubrication from the bores).
Get rid of the aftermarket Toad electrics and any other devices wired into the electrics and revert to the original Fiat wiring. Get some proper code diagnostics done.
You can spend a fortune in time, effort, substituted parts and sanity thinking you are saving money doing it yourself. A competent professional may shine a welcome ray of sunshine on your problem and get you back on the road for a lot less than you think!

varesecrazy said:

for completeness.. it's still worth trying another decent battery - as the fuel rail pressures are generated by cranking speed,
low speed = reduced pressures

another potential is the crank angle sensor( cambelt end..near sump,)

Charlie

Click to expand...

New battery (and the old one) have been "capacity checked" with auto electrician - no issues. Both are the correct spec' too, so don't believe there are any issues there.

Crank angle sensor, or least the connection is on the list to check.

Multieuscan software to be ordered tomorrow, hopefully that'll give me some pointers!

toyogran said:

The Multieuscan diagnostics revealed inadequate rail pressure when cranking. These engines need about 300 bar to be registered at the ecu whilst cranking to allow successful starting. If the starter (or its associated electrical circuit) isn't up to scratch you won't generate sufficient rail pressure and satisfy the ecu criteria.
Have tried a tow start and see if you can crank the engine faster?
If all else fails try a sniff of Easystart (but don't overuse it as it effectively washes any oil lubrication from the bores).
Get rid of the aftermarket Toad electrics and any other devices wired into the electrics and revert to the original Fiat wiring. Get some proper code diagnostics done.
You can spend a fortune in time, effort, substituted parts and sanity thinking you are saving money doing it yourself. A competent professional may shine a welcome ray of sunshine on your problem and get you back on the road for a lot less than you think!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that! Software kit will be ordered tomorrow, I think that's essential to narrow down what's going.

Surprised that it's capable of monitoring fuel rail pressure as I've picked up the rail pressure sensor failure is not uncommon. There are a handful of other engine management sensors that need to be verified as OK - I'm limited to simply physically checking connectors at the moment.

The TOAD system is on the list to go...having looked at it it would seem to have been very professionally installed, the cables from the unit have been cloth wrapped into other OE loom cables. Great for making it difficult for thieves, but a headache for the likes of me to remove.

I'll keep you all posted on progress

jacinabox said:

Thanks for that! Software kit will be ordered tomorrow, I think that's essential to narrow down what's going.

Surprised that it's capable of monitoring fuel rail pressure as I've picked up the rail pressure sensor failure is not uncommon. There are a handful of other engine management sensors that need to be verified as OK - I'm limited to simply physically checking connectors at the moment.

The TOAD system is on the list to go...having looked at it it would seem to have been very professionally installed, the cables from the unit have been cloth wrapped into other OE loom cables. Great for making it difficult for thieves, but a headache for the likes of me to remove.

I'll keep you all posted on progress

Click to expand...

Use the FREE VERSION OF MES
Until you are sure itll connect properly...

Somebody said their ducato of your age would NOT CONNECT..

varesecrazy said:

Use the FREE VERSION OF MES
Until you are sure itll connect properly...

Somebody said their ducato of your age would NOT CONNECT..

Click to expand...

Works perfectly with Multiecuscan and Alfaobd, doesn't work with generic obd software.

First issue people have is down to crappy chinese cable with fake FTDI chips / prolific or just bad cables, followed by not selecting the correct virtual com port, followed by incorrect baud rate.