Technical Reducing steering lock? - who, how, where and when ;)

randomizered · Jan 8, 2008

Right, MOT coming up, and with 6 speed box i'm gonna have even more scrubbing. I get it a bit on the 5 speed anyway.

I could try 15mm spacers rather than 10mm, but it may not help, so as the engine is out i had a look at the rack a little.

I have never seen the Novitec reducers before, and as they don't sell them, thats not an option.

Heres the rack:

Heres the one end, the end with the teeth:

Here's the other end, no teeth here:

Is the idea to fit something over these teeth, and at the other end, thats is secure and solid, so it won't track over any further.

Also I'd only need to reduce the one side, but will do both so its equal.

Any ideas what materials, shapes etc i can use. Also how I can affix it so its secure.

I don't really want to experiment, as if something came loose and got into he teeth, I may be unable to turn!!!!!!

I have PAS, not that that makes much difference.

Cheers for ideas and help

Kristian

fingers99 · Jan 8, 2008

I'll take Stanisforth to the bath with me and see if he has an explanation! As to materials, aluminium is the obvious choice, but from what Aaron was saying Jon used Nylatron to make Emma's up.

I need to resolve this one myself, too.

randomizered · Jan 8, 2008

Dunno who Stanisforth is but have fun with them in the bath :devil:

J333EVO · Jan 8, 2008

Nylon plumbers washers were used on the Sei to reduce lock as even with 15mm spacers you will be no where near clearing the box, its I am sure you can see at least 20mm longer, so the fact yours wheels are hitting now on 10mm spacers an extra 5mm is going to do nothing.

Nylon is easy to work with, as you can cut it redrill centre etc easy, but more than tough enough to stop the lock and give a gentle stop rather than bang against a metal washer.

fingers99 · Jan 9, 2008

Stanisforth is a guy who builds single seater racers (mainly hillclimb stuff) and writes about it and suspension design and stuff.

Anyhow, I can find nothing useful.

From memory, the Novitec ones were very thick, almost as wide as they were tall (but, then, Novitec used to fit 15"+ wheels to everything). They were certainly bright and metalic, so I assume they were aluminium.

Nylon is a good material for these: it's also a little lighter than aluminium. But although it cuts easily it can be a pig to machine to a fine finish, so you'd probably not use it for batch production. The point about the resilience of nylon is a good one, but I've seen recirculating ball systems where the lock stop is a steel stud.

Thinking about it, there must be some kind of lock stop in there anyway, otherwise the pinion would clout the unmachined end of the rack and destroy itself.

fingers99 · Jan 9, 2008

Bugger it! There's a Sei in Mark's scrappy round the corner. If I can get to it (I suspect it's on top of something else by now) and it isn't raining at the weekend, I'll pull it off and dismember it. It really is the kind of thing you need to have in your hands to figure out.

arc · Jan 9, 2008

staying ontopic.. ish

how integrated is the PAS on a Sei. I realise it has it's own ECU, but that is not linked to the main ECU. Or does it require a VSS connection.

I don't *need* PAS - but then i don't *need* half the stuff i have on my car

randomizered · Jan 9, 2008

Cheers fingers, that'll be great. I don't really want to strip my own down when i have so much else on my plate.

@ arc - See the attached, pages 45 onwards. It does use the VSS, which is a pice of **** to fit to your car......but you have to remove your mechanical linkage if its where I think it is. Good excuse to then rip a sei pod aprt and fit it all into your dash. Digital displays

Kristian

J333EVO · Jan 9, 2008

arc said:
staying ontopic.. ish

how integrated is the PAS on a Sei. I realise it has it's own ECU, but that is not linked to the main ECU. Or does it require a VSS connection.

I don't *need* PAS - but then i don't *need* half the stuff i have on my car

From memory does the PAS ECU take a feed from main ECU for speed info so it knows to reduce assistance the faster you go otherwise it would be comedy light.

I am sure we disconnected something from ECU to PAS ECU that has had the effect of making the steering default to lease resistance setting which I found makes the Sei turn much better at low speeds no longer feels over assisted.

arc · Jan 9, 2008

yeah, thats the VSS.

randomizered · Jan 9, 2008

J333EVO said:
From memory does the PAS ECU take a feed from main ECU for speed info so it knows to reduce assistance the faster you go otherwise it would be comedy light.

I am sure we disconnected something from ECU to PAS ECU that has had the effect of making the steering default to lease resistance setting which I found makes the Sei turn much better at low speeds no longer feels over assisted.

The PAS ECU talks directly to the speed sensor for its speed information.

I had read that that wire was to do with some speed thing, but it doesn't make sense, as it gets all its speed information directly from K84, and tbh, disconnecting it didn't seem to make any difference to my steering at all.

I suspect that wire does something REALLY mundane, as its not even detailed in the description and is only one wire. Possibly a warning condition. Its not even obvious whether it is too or from the injection ECU.

The earlier revision of the PAS system doesn't have this link at all.

Kristian

arseofbox · Jan 10, 2008

J333EVO said:
Nylon is easy to work with, as you can cut it redrill centre etc easy, but more than tough enough to stop the lock and give a gentle stop rather than bang against a metal washer.

Could even sandwich a bit of NBR rubber between two nylon pieces to make it gentler.

Brooky · Jan 13, 2008

fingers99 said:
But although it cuts easily it can be a pig to machine to a fine finish

I've never had any problems with getting a good finish on nylon and im not a good machinist. I love machining the stuff tho,you can take huge cuts and make a hell of a mess:slayer:

fingers99 · Jan 13, 2008

Brooky said:
I've never had any problems with getting a good finish on nylon and im not a good machinist. I love machining the stuff tho,you can take huge cuts and make a hell of a mess:slayer:

OK, so if we need a batch doing, you get the job! All the muppets round here make a pigs ear out of it and it's way too simple to take over to Gleve in Holmfirth.

fingers99 · Jan 15, 2008

Well, I nearly got the rack off the scrapper today: crawling round in a car perched on top of another, and the car is full of water, cress growing in the carpet and fungus! Of course, it's an 889 so we'll have to pull the manifold off to get it out.

Did get two trailing arms off it today and spotted a K series, so I'll have the TB and injectors off that.

Time for a bath: I stink of degreaser and pond weed, my hair is matted with engine oil and I'm soaked.

randomizered · Jan 31, 2008

MOT on monday, so had a proper look today, to try and bodge something up but it's gonna need a lot more thinking.

The picture below shows the inner track rod joint under the gaiter. The rod can rotate in the end.

The red highlighted part of this joint is metal, and flat, and it hits a flat metal surace inside the rack housing. This is what stops the lock.

I will get this made in metal as it strong and is how its done at the moment.

To fit them though, they will have to be slipped over the teeth, and this means the inner ball joint an housing needs to come off.

Highlighted in yellow are two flat faces on this joint, so i presume I can unbolt it from the rack...but not 100%. Anyone done this?

A two piece reduce can't be used as there no way to securely clamp the parts together, space is tight.

The green highlighted part is slightly recesed, so i will leave a lip on the inner of the reducer at the end to stop it moving about too much.

Hopefully be cheap enough to have made.

Just need to know if anyone has had the end off the rack?

Cheers,

Kristian

fingers99 · Jan 31, 2008

First, an apology -- I still havn't had the time to pull the one off the scrapper and strip it. So, I dunno how it comes apart.

But, I think you have it right: there should be two things stopping the rack, one for each side (of lock, I mean). The bits you need to have made up will look like extremely (I mean, extremely) fat washers -- should be very cheap if you don't specify anything exotic, literally 10 minutes work on a lathe.

Brooky · Jan 31, 2008

fingers99 said:
literally 10 minutes work on a lathe.

it would take me all day

i love me tea breaks

im only joking...im not that crap at turning

randomizered · Jan 31, 2008

I haven't measured the parts yet as i couldn't find my digital caliper :bang: so will have to measure it tomorrow.

Hopefully I can just find a standard alu tube from somewhere like here.

That would make it very cheap to do

I noticed the wheel not only hits the gearbox on lock one way, but also on the ARB the other way, so I will have to do both sides. I wasn't gonna bother, but it has to be done.

Good thing, as the rod is in a ball joint, i can unbolt it without messing the tracking up or breaking ball joints etc. The wheel will be independent when its removed and i can just swing it out the way

Kristian

Brooky · Jan 31, 2008

Get some sizes and i might be able to sort something for you

return favor you can lent me your MS stimulator thingy

mine should be coming soon

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