Technical The car cranks but NOT STARTING

[Navin Talati]

Dear friends,
My fiat Palio 1.2 nv Petrol ELPS Dec-2004 (Indian version) is accompanying me seamlessly till date since 11 th Dec. 2004. Alertly maintained through genuine components and consumables. Recently,it gave me a new type (for me it may be new!) of problem despite regular maintenance.
This has happened since Dt.28-08-2015 and the issue still persists!

ISSUE / PROBLEM : ------------ "The car cranks but NOT STARTING"

On the day all of a sudden the car stopped on the road denying to start. On applying self, it simply cranks but not starting. Fortunately the distance of my home was just a 200 meters and we pushed the car to owner's residence. Till date following actions are taken to resolve the issue from this point of time. I am narrating in sequential steps ? what I did.

ACTIONS TAKEN :

(1). I measured the Battery voltage which was around 12 v. Got it recharged at a battery service station and reinstalled. The car started and I also took a round of about 5-6 Km. Next day I went out for some domestic work with the car. Stopped my-self at couple of places to do something. Finally at one stop it tucked- denied to restart! - I assumed that the issue may be due to the Battery (Exide Matrix DIN 50) which would have completed its life-cycle as it was in action uninterruptedly since dt.03-03-2015 ? Thus the about 3.5 years span is I think sufficient to replace. - So finally I put the car where it was and replaced the old one with a brand NEW EXIDE MILEAGE DIN-50 with in a couple of days. Reinstalled the New Battery but the car did not start!

(2). Next day I went there to tow the car and put an effort to start by self ? Fortunately it started and could run about a Km. And re-reached at Home destination, it continued idlelly after reaching for about 5 minutes and stopped it self. Then could not re-start! - simply cranks. (I thanks God & The Car that I am saved of laborious towing efforts !)

(3).I checked and cleaned all the FUSES (Fuses inside the car as well as in the Engine bay -i.e. around battery). All are o.k.

(4). I also checked RELAYS specially both of Fuel Pump (4-Terminals, 12V 30A Red coloured mounted behind Battery) and of Ignition (5-Terminals, 12V 30A, Yellow mounted on the Fuse Panel inside the car). I also Tested both through multimeter and applying 12V supply. Clicking and Resistance measurements, Open & Closed circuit status were checked through their Terminals labled as 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87a etc. - Both are found O.K.

(5). This took TWO days. After that the car Started but it run for some minutes, meanwhile the Alternator was checked as under:
* Car OFF ---> the New Battery V measured was in the range of 12.7V -to ? 13V
* Car ON ---> made all lights, A.C., Music System on and full possible load was given. At that time the Battery terminal showed 13.7V and making all these OFF it exhibited 14.6V
Thus higher V output then that of the Battery indicates that the Alternator is working properly.
Meanwhile the car itself went OFF ! Thanks God that I could checkup the Alternator ? it is O.K.
It was observed during the above running that effect of lever was not uniform. At higher lever the rousing was becoming poor/weak. - actually it should not be so.

(6). Fuel flow was checked through a valve on the injector rail. The car was not starting, so just keeping Key on MAR, it was showing flush of petrol and then stops. 4-5 times repeatedly this was checked. This indicates that fuel is reaching up to injectors and its path is most probably not chocked/blocked. This also indicated that the fuel pump is also working. (Value of Pressure could not be measured without appropriate Pressure Gauge device ? This is the limitation. I shell be obliged if some one will give me specifications and sources for this Pressure measurement device/kit available in India).

(7). To check the physical status of the Fuel Pump, I opened the cover below the rear seat and found that all the connectors, wires and the whole body of the pump is o.k. I cleaned and repacked as it was.

(8). I also doubt on Inertial Fuel Cutoff Switch, but I could not loacate it.(Will some one help me to find it?). However there are very rare chances of happening this possibility as otherwise the car would have not been started randomly (twice up till now. - Now not starting).

(9). I have also pressed all the connectors to put them all in properly gripped and tight position to rule out any possibility of loose connection.

(10). I have also OBD II device recently procured but unable to use it for want of a suitable and appropriate software. The one supplied with the device is also not working and the cause may be my limitation about the COM port understanding. (Some guidance is also requested on how to set/select COM PORT ?).

I will also upload some pictures about above information in due course. Till then bear with me and PLEASE guide me WHAT TO DO next. (Of course still I doubt for INJECTORS and COILS).

Your response suitable for DIY basis in these issues will be highly appreciated.

Thanks to all in anticipation.

Navin Talati / 08-09-2015

 

[guacamole]

Hi, do you have a spare ignition key?

If you do try the spare key. My reason for this is that the chip in your ignition key communicates with the electronic control unit on your engine. Sometimes the key stops communicating and the engine will turn over and will not start. Also a yellow warning light on the dashboard will stay illuminated.

Usually the yellow light comes on and after about a second goes out then when you operate the starter your car will start.

It's worth trying that spare key!

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Maybe coilpack, or cranck sensor.
Have the ECU read by a professional for stored and/or hidden faults.

 

[Navin Talati]

Friends,

After the lots of exercise as mentioned in the my initial post #1 , I checked the Ignition coils. I opened all the four terminals ((carefully pulled out) and just cleaned. There are two coils each for Two spark plugs. I checked resistances in the primary and secondary windings and found with in limit. Primary had very low (1.3 & 1.5 Ohms) and Secondary had high (7600 and 7570 Ohms).
Then tried to start the car but it did not!

Yesterday I checked the connection of lamda sensor. I found it on the rear wall of the engine room mounted below the ECU. I opened in up and measured the resistance There are FOUR wires going in to the Lamda Sensor mounted on the upstream of the catalytic converter. They are Black, Grey, and two Whites. The resistance between the TWO WHITE wires foun about 3.3 Ohms. Which seems in to the range. Then reconnected as it was. Then I tried to start the car, Fortunately it STARTED. I has extremely happy, assumed the loose connection maight be the culprit!
Here ONE Important thing I noted is the sound of the engine was considerably low as compared to its roaring for last 11 years. The matter was really notable. And it induced me to believe that there is something else which prevents the car to startup and not the lamda sensor. The car became little silent compare to its usual engine sound. Even at this stage I continued idling for an hour and meanshile it got stopped Twice. But could be started immediately by its usual key. (probably there might be some switch off device/system activable if the vehicle runs idle for longer time – I think so.). During this mode of little success I not dare to take it on the road but could not resist myself in taking 5-6 round around the cross road traffic island circle totallin to about 0.4-0.5 km. It was run in 1 st and 2 nd gear only. I started the car 5 to 6 times during last 24 hrs. I started just in a single key pujnch! - Though the engine sound was not acceptable as its normal one it is giving till date.

Today I reopen the Lamda Sensor connection and reconnected and the car could be restarted. No problem. I was affraid through its sound that on road it may not perform normally and hance further investigation could not be avoided. As its first step, today I opened the connector of Rpm/Crank sensor which I found just handy on the engine head cover near the engine oiol filling point and mounted on the timing belt cover. There are THREE terminals. The resistance I tried to measure amongst them but could not measure as noe of the combination was giving any stable value. As per my knowledge through reading general literature there should be some 1100 to 1400 Ohms or around this valye there should be between the ends of the sensor. But I could bot. Again I refitted the connector. When tried to start, it REFUSED ! - So again I am there where I was due to this issue.

I have also tried using Both the KEYs of the car. Nothing could be gained.

Iam also trying through OBD port. I have got ELM 327 Bluetooth Interface and 3-to-16 pin converter but I am unable to connect it due to issue of COM ports and Protocol – which I am unable to resolve because of the inability to understand different messages and warnings it gives.

Your helping guidance is direly needed.

Navin Talati / 11-09-2015

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Change the crancksensor.
Remember Fiat advises to replace the O2 ( Lambda) sensor every 120.000km's...

 

[Navin Talati]

Friends,
Proceeding towrad the forward path of the further investigation about fault prdiction. I tried the recheck the status of the RPM & TDC/Crank shaft Sensor.
First of all I disconnected the male-female connectors very carefully. There are numbers 1, 2 & 3 alloted to each wires mounted. 1 is Black for Signal, 2 is White for Earth, and 3 is Black tapped for Shield Anti-interference Sheath. Female scoket lines are connected toward Control Unit / ECU and the Male scoket (with Pins) lines are going towar the sensor.

Male Scoket:
I carefully measured the resistance between all the 1, 2, and 3 terminals and found value of 0.7 Ohms – just neglegible or say the Resistance is almost ZERO. This implies that the Sensor would have SHORTED CONNECTION. Usually there must be a considerable Resistance value between 1 & 2. Refering the literature it is found that For Bravo-Brava, 1370, 12V has this value between 774 to 946 Ohms where as the same for its 1581, 16V, (1998) model has between 1134 to 1386 Ohms.

If we assume correctly that the Sensor is failed, there may be TWO possibilities. Either the Sensor would have completed its life-span or some complications or malfunctions from input sources side would have make it dead! So that atleast we should check on Female Scoket side to predict something.

Female Scoket:
(a).When the car is OFF (no key/totally off), there is ZERO voltage and INFINITE ohms amongst allt the three terminals. - implies that there is no hidden or unknown power input to the device.
(b). When the car is OFF (no key/totally off), The Battery voltage = 13.45 V
When the Key is on MAR (i.e.Power ON to the system), The Battery voltage = 12.43 V, implies that the whole circuit network is active and that causes the drop of about 1.1 V in the Battery. At this MAR position, the terminal voltages were measured. Between 1 & 2, as -0.8V, Between 2 & 3, as +2.3 V, and Between 1 & 3, as +1.4 V. Values of V for points 1, 2, and 3 were also measured with reference to the Battery's + and – terminals. At this time Negative probe of Multimeter was kept on Battery side. Terminals 1, 2, anbd 3 gave -9.3V, -8.85V and -12.41V respectively with respect to Battery's +. Terminals 1, 2, anbd 3 gave +1.3V, +2.29V and 0.0 V respectively with respect to Battery's -.
From this behaviour in the test data output I feel to conclude that upstream side has not any issue which may cause the failure of the Sensor.
I am uploading the pictures for your ready reference.
I would like to have your comments, advise, and further guidance on how to proceed. - I request you for the same to give an exhaustive feed-back on the issue and draw my kind attention toward anything I am missing.

Hope to hear soon from you.

Navin Talati / 12-09-2015

 

[Navin Talati]

Will somebody guide me how to upload pictures directly on the thread space? In the Image inserting it asks to enter the URL . Can't directly uploaded?
Navin talati /12-09-2015

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/151063519788?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/351326149368?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Navin Talati]

Today i removed the component and it resembles to that of BOSCH product in #8 .
I want to upload pictures. Please show me the procedure to do so on this FF site.

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Click on the "insert image" button above....

 

[Navin Talati]

Respected Friends,

In response to my above posts and looking in depth of the issue, technically it was concluded by most of us that the RPM & TDS / Crank shaft Sensor may be the cause of the issue. Measurement of resistances amongst its all the three terminals was showing almost nil resistance, means the sensor is sorted. So I procured a new one original from 99rpm and today installed the same myself!

The car STARTED today. Happy days are here again.

I took a round of about 6-7 Km as test drive to assess the situation after this replacement. Could not find any thing odd in the engine and car,s running. Still I think to take observations for a couple of weeks and let me indepth check the real situation. ... So I am keeping my watch and observation and shell let you all know what happens.

After a couple of weeks, I shell upload all the detail with pictures of installation of the Sending Unit for your further knowledge and information.

MEANWHILE, I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST YOU ALL TO GUIDE ME FURTHER, THAT WHICH MORE SENSORS SHOULD I CHECK AND WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED IN PALIO 1.2 NV PETROL CAR?

I am awaithing for your Feedback regarding additional SENSORS.

Thanks you all once again.

Navin Talati / 18-09-2015

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Cranckshaft sensor was my guess indeed, read above...
No other sensors are to be checked at this time, as they are designed not to fail during the lifetime of the engine...

 

[Navin Talati]

Cranckshaft sensor was my guess indeed, read above...
No other sensors are to be checked at this time, as they are designed not to fail during the lifetime of the engine...

Yes Peter, You are correct.
As a preventive measure I wish to checkup all the sensors existing in my car and that is the reason I am seeking your help to get myself conversant with the location and health of those sensors. Could you please detail the matter.
Navin Talati / 25-09-2015

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Impossible task, and not neccesairy at all.
Keep the engine in good condition, use only the best quality fuel and oil available, change fuel and airfilters often, and all sensors should last an engine's lifetime.
When a senor fails, the ECU will sense that, and the check engine light will come on.

 

[Navin Talati]

Dear Friends
As per my previous post, I am updating herewith detail about how I replaced the RPM/TDC Sensor.
The new original sensor was perocured from 99rpm.com.

*
It has undermentioned specification:
Part No. 55189518
Description: SENDING UNIT
Embossed marking ; 55189518, C148, Magneti Marelli, 4E26
Imported & Packed by: FCA (Fiat Crysler Automobiles) India Automobiles Private Limited

*
Using multimeter, the resistances were measured. Between its 1 & 2 terminal it has 1142 Ohms resistance where as between 2 & 3 and 1 & 3 the value is Infinite.
(NOTE: All values in older sensor were 0.7 Ohms – showing SHORTED status of the sensor).


*
PROCEDURE:

1). Lifted the car on a jack, stabilised by supporting through virticle stem and took all applicable safety precautions. Battery was also detached as per the prescribed method in the manual.
2). Removed the front right (driver)side wheel and wheel arch/cover. This facilitates easy assessibility of the parts replacement and fittings.
3). Cleaned the mounting and peripheral space completely and also released the wire holding clamp and bolt fitted to fix the old sensor. Pulled the old sensor and detached, Also detached the electrical connection of it lying just above the enging head cover in the bonet. And finally removed the old one.
4). Recleaned the mounting space and mounted the New Sensor following the steps in reverse order described in abov #3 . reconnecte its electrical connection.
5). Care is taken that its wire must not touch any of the belts around it and the location/position of none of the pully/belt should be disturbed. Otherwise setting of crank will be disturbed amd will/may cause misfire.
6). Battery was reconnected. Key was kept on MAR for a minute. Ther car was started and was idled for a minute. This was repeated twice to get setting of the ECU.
7). Now you can start the car and move. - I took a round of about 6-7 Km. And also doing well for last about 10 day or so.

*
Please refer the photos having self-explaining notes in them.

Thanks to you all for sparing your valuable time for reading this. If I am missing something, please correct it. That will be highly appreciated.

Navin Talati / 26-09-2015

 

[Navin Talati]

addng the images

 

[Navin Talati]

The concerned pictures are uploaded here.

 

[Molefi]

Hi, I have a 1.6 Fiat Siena that's giving me electrical issues. It has a hard start and when started it emits smoke from the exhaust pipe that smells like fuel. I did replace all sensors but the problem still persists. The timing has been set multiple times as well. You can see that its drawing amps when trying to start and ultimately starts. This looks like an earth fault or a faulty ignition relay (module). I measured the resistance on the relay and I only got 1 Ohm between positive and control circuit. I got another relay which ow measures 0.3-0.4 ohms. Please advise on the required resistance of this 6 PIN relay (module). I'm in South Africa and cannot find a brand new relay supplier.



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