Technical reason for brake/clutch fluid max level on reservoir

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Technical reason for brake/clutch fluid max level on reservoir

Zardo

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Hi,

I pressure-bleeded my four disk brakes today. Wanted to do the clutch, too, but there's a big hose in the way (Abarth Punto Evo) and it got dark outside.

The fluid level is now well beyond max level, as there's only about 1.5 - 2 cm of air between the cap and the fluid level (which is at the level of the neck of the reservoir).

I wonder what the technical reason for the fluid max level on the reservoir is. Is it temperature-dependend fluid expansion/contraction? I'll do the clutch soon, for the moment I didn't suck the excessive fluid out of the reservoir. Had a slow test drive about 10 km, nothing abnormal happened.

Any ideas?

Thx
 
Probably not much going to happen, until you put the next set of new brake pads on the car and push the piston back out and fluid up into the cylinder. That might cause an overflow if the lid is off the cylinder, or if the lid is on it then you may force liquid out elsewhere and need to repair the leak.

The fluid is very cheap, so you may as well get it out. A cheap syringe does the trick for me.
 
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Thanks. The idea was to do the clutch as soon as possible and use the excessive fluid in the reservoir (and what's remaining in the pressure tool) for the bleed.

I wonder if the lid is vented. Asking ChatGPT resulted in a pressure drop of around 0.145 Bar with the temperature drop going from +13° Celsius today afternoon to +4.7°C tomorrow morning (because the air gap volume is so small and the brake fluid contracts when getting colder).

The reservoir seems to be sturdy enough as Fiat recommends +1 Bar of pressure for the bleeding.
 
With the res filled to max, when you put the rubber washer/cover thing in it is still good to put the lid on. If you overfill, I find it overflows.
Probably not much going to happen, until you put the next set of new brake pads on the car and push the piston back out and fluid up into the cylinder. That might cause an overflow if the lid is off the cylinder, or if the lid is on it then you may force liquid out elsewhere and need to repair the leak.

The fluid is very cheap, so you may as well get it out. A cheap syringe does the trick for me.
Its definitely a vented lid to avoid vacuum formation as the brakes wear adn the level drops among the reasons.
 
I'll check the reservoir tomorrow if anything has leaked (because of my driving today and the braking action). Hopefully, I'll bleed the clutch tomorrow, too, and bleed the excessive fluid out of the system.

By the way, I'll also have to change the rear brake calipers and was wondering how to prevent any fluid leaking out when disconnecting the flexible hose. If the cap is vented, maybe take it of and temporarily seal the reservoir air-tight so there is less of a chance of fluid leaking? I'm rather slow so the time I reconnect that hose to the new caliber, probably half of the reservoir will have leaked.
 
The usual way to stop brake fluid leaking out when changing a brake caliper is to clamp off the brake hose close to the caliper using a 'brake hose clamp' (enter this term in a search engine to see the various styles of b.h. clamp that are available).

In the absence of a proper b.h. clamp, some people use a 'visegrips' but it's important to place packing e.g. cardboard, between the jaws of the visegrips and the hose to avoid damaging the hose - the bore of the hose is only circa 3mm so no need to clamp the hose flat or tightly, just a gentle squeeze will suffice (i.e. just reduce the hose outside diameter by about 3mm). You're going to get some air into the caliper/hose by virtue of changing the caliper, so you'll need to bleed the brakes that you worked on - probably no need to bleed all the brakes though.

Another way of preventing brake fluid loss would be to seal the brake fluid reservoir (as you yourself have suggested) - one possible easy way of doing this is to remove the reservoir cap, cover the opening with some plastic/cellophane then refit the cap.
Another way is to wedge the brake pedal partly down e.g. by using a length of wood between either the steering wheel or the seat to the brake pedal or apply a weight to hold the brake pedal partly down - you'll still have to bleed the brakes afterwards anyway. Explanation :- when the brake pedal is partly depressed it closes off the inlet port from the reservoir to the master cylinder, preventing fluid from escaping from the reservoir. There are proprietary 'brake pedal depressor' tools available (enter this term into a search engine to see what this tool looks like).

Incidentally, you probably already know this, but brake fluid is 'hygroscopic' this means it absorbs moisture (which is the main reason for changing the brake fluid at intervals set by the car manufacturer). How does moisture get into the brake fluid, you may ask?

1) Air contains moisture i.e humidity, the air space above the fluid in the reservoir is exposed to air so the moisture contained in this air can be absorbed by the brake fluid in the reservoir. Every removal of the reservoir cap allows fresh air and more moisture to enter the reservoir - there is no need to remove the cap, the reservoir on modern cars is translucent to enable the checking of fluid level without having to remove the cap. Some reservoirs have a flexible, extendable rubber diaphragm, fitted under the cap, that separates the fluid from the air space above it and follows the fluid down as the fluid level drops due to brake pad wear.

2) There may be some moisture already in the fluid that is used to top up the reservoir. When the cap is removed from the container of brake fluid, fresh air containing moisture enters the can and therefore the brake fluid. This problem gets worse as the level in the container of fluid goes down - i.e. there is more free space, so more air containing moisture enters the container and the brake fluid absorbs this new moisture -this then gets into the brake fluid reservoir when you top up the fluid. The usual advice is to not keep partly used cans of brake fluid for lengthy periods of time. Buy some new fluid, it's not expensive.

3) Believe it or not, (I've seen this mentioned in technical training literature from the brake fluid and brake system manufacturers) small amounts of moisture from the air can be absorbed through the rubber brake hoses over a lengthy period of time, this is the main reason why you encounter corrosion of components that are so far from the reservoir such as caliper pistons/bores and wheel cy;inder pistons/bores. This is another reason why the manufacturers recommend brake fluid changes at set intervals (usually every 2 years). Moisture in the brake fluid lowers the boiling point of the fluid and the water can turn to steam which is compressible, (whereas brake fluid is not compressible) resulting in the pedal going to the floor without applying the brakes. There are testers available to measure the boiling point of a sample of the brake fluid and give an indication of the %age moisture content - you shouldn't need to do this test if you change the fluid at the recommended intervals.

Final tip:- Don't shake the container of brake fluid - doing so puts tiny air bubbles into the fluid - you'll then have trouble bleeding the air out of the system and may very well have to bleed the brakes a second time a day or two later as the pedal will remain spongy. Even having the container of fluid shaking/rolling around in the boot (trunk) when bringing it home can mix air bubbles into the fluid - if this happens. leaving the container to sit for 2 -3 days should allow the entrained air to escape from the fluid and it can then be used.

Also, stick with the brake fluid recommended by the car manufacturer (typically DOT 4 spec.) - do not try to be clever by using e.g. DOT 5, Silicon based brake fluid in any system not designed to use it, otherwise, you'll really have problems (you have been warned!!).
 
Thank you very much.

Actually, I think I could also fit my pressure bleeder tool, but without pressurizing it at all (rather de-pressurizing). This might cut the brake fluid system from atmospheric pressure, so brake fluid shoudn't spill much as the air will stay in the tool. This could be rendered even more effective if I open the empty tool first and blow some hot air into it, close it. A slightly negative pressure (relative to outside pressure) should form inside once the air inside has cooled down to ambient temperature.
 
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I think you're overcomplicating things.

The methods I described in detail always work - the clamp method is used in professional workshops all over the world and is what is taught by technical instructors employed by the brake system and brake fluid manufacturers. The hose clamps I use were made for and sold to me by Girling, one of the oldest brake system component manufacturers.

Closing off the reservoir by placing a piece of polythene under the reservoir cap sounds a lot easier and less time-consuming that what you're intending.

Hot air holds more moisture that cold air, when cooled, some of this moisture will drop out and condense on any cool surface. I hope you remember to thoroughly clean and dry the inside of your pressure bleeding apparatus before you attempt to use it to bleed the brakes, you surely don't want to risk getting any moisture into your braking system?
 
Thanks, I've heard about flexible brake hoses get damaged and break when their older and brittle and get clamped with force.

You're right about moisture. However, heating air with a hot air blower doesn't magically increase the water content of the hot air stream, and the braking tool needs to be connected anyway. Maybe it won't hold negative pressure because of the integrated pump, that's quite possible.

The brake tool comes with a screw-on connector for the reservoir, maybe it's sufficient to screw that on and close the small opening of that connector, the reservoir will thus no longer be vented, and after reconnecting the brake line to the caliper, connect the brake tool.
 
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