General Non starting 1.9td

[JimCuthb64]

Hi... long story will try to keep it short...

We have a 1999 Ducato 1.9td.

It's the peugot engine, it's had a reconditioned engine fitted...with all the ancillaries swapped over from the old engine...ie the fuel pump.

She had new glow plugs fitted...
Had a new starter motor..timing belt etc...

Recently she has failed to start first thing in the morning.. turning over great ..producing whiteish/ grey smoke.

Won't kick unless she gets a squirt of dampstart.

Once started she would run all day. Starts again no problem after that...

I was told it would be the lift pump in the tank... ordered one it didnt look anything like a lift pump... just a sender unit... changed it anyway...


No difference...

At a loss as to the cause... really need to get to the bottom of this...


Has anyone else experienced this & hopefully found a cure...


Would really appreciate some advice & help...


Thanks.

 

[Communicator]

Hi... long story will try to keep it short...

We have a 1999 Ducato 1.9td.

It's the peugot engine, it's had a reconditioned engine fitted...with all the ancillaries swapped over from the old engine...ie the fuel pump.

She had new glow plugs fitted...
Had a new starter motor..timing belt etc...

Recently she has failed to start first thing in the morning.. turning over great ..producing whiteish/ grey smoke.

Won't kick unless she gets a squirt of dampstart.

Once started she would run all day. Starts again no problem after that...

I was told it would be the lift pump in the tank... ordered one it didnt look anything like a lift pump... just a sender unit... changed it anyway...


No difference...

At a loss as to the cause... really need to get to the bottom of this...


Has anyone else experienced this & hopefully found a cure...


Would really appreciate some advice & help...


Thanks.

Hi Jim,

Your story has a familiar ring. I am sure that in recent weeks, there was a thread with a similar problem. The advice given by I think @bugsymike, was to fit a priming bulb.

Almost 60 years ago my first vehicle, had a mechanical lift pump driven from the camshaft.

The injection pump also has a transfer pump before the injection stage.

It seems that in your generation of vehicles, a lift pump was not fitted, and the transfer pump has to draw fuel all of the way from the tank.

I think that you may have a micro leak in the fuel line or filter, and that fuel is draining back into the tank overnight.

As the transfer pump has probably worn slightly over 25 years, it may be unable to generate sufficient suction at cranking speed, to overcome the leak.

 

[JimCuthb64]

I was looking at fitting a new fuel filter.... wont do any harm...

I'm guessing I would need to bleed the system after that.

Can't for the life of me understand why the " mechanic" that fitted the engine, didnt fit a new fuel filter..

 

[JimCuthb64]

Hi Jim,

Your story has a familiar ring. I am sure that in recent weeks, there was a thread with a similar problem. The advice given by I think @bugsymike, was to fit a priming bulb.

Almost 60 years ago my first vehicle, had a mechanical lift pump driven from the camshaft.

The injection pump also has a transfer pump before the injection stage.

It seems that in your generation of vehicles, a lift pump was not fitted, and the transfer pump has to draw fuel all of the way from the tank.

I think that you may have a micro leak in the fuel line or filter, and that fuel is draining back into the tank overnight.

As the transfer pump has probably worn slightly over 25 years, it may be unable to generate sufficient suction at cranking speed, to overcome the leak.

Thanks for your advice & help.

 

[bugsymike]

The priming bulb does help in some cases , but if you are getting smoke whatever colour, then presumably fuel is getting to injectors but not igniting.
If engine has been running well in the past then probably rule out timing.
Next if grey/white smoke, maybe smelling of diesel then engine is not getting the fuel hot enough to ignite.
Most commonly if heater plugs are not working or some of them.
Finally low compression will cause same symptoms.
So my first job would be to rule out heater plug side.

 

[JimCuthb64]

The priming bulb does help in some cases , but if you are getting smoke whatever colour, then presumably fuel is getting to injectors but not igniting.
If engine has been running well in the past then probably rule out timing.
Next if grey/white smoke, maybe smelling of diesel then engine is getting the fuel hot enough to ignite.
Most commonly if heater plugs are not working or some of them.
Finally low compression will cause same symptoms.
So my first job would be to rule out heater plug side.

I've been reading through the other post by Rikilever...

And at the end he says it was a small electrical connection.... may try to investigate this as well....
I'm no expert on vehicle electrics or deisel engines...

But I need to resolve this issue...

 

[bugsymike]

I've been reading through the other post by Rikilever...

And at the end he says it was a small electrical connection.... may try to investigate this as well....
I'm no expert on vehicle electrics or deisel engines...

But I need to resolve this issue...

Sorry in my earlier reply it should have said NOT! I hadn't eaten since 7:30 and was putting my "nose bag on"
"Next if grey/white smoke, maybe smelling of diesel then engine is NOT getting the fuel hot enough to ignite.

Not quite sure which small electrical connection.
However be good to rule out heater plugs

 

[JimCuthb64]

So we have a development ...

And a bit of a mystery.....


First.... as said before the vans had a new engine, glow plugs & startermotor fitted as mentioned earlier...

Now... the van also has a master switch fitted, which kills all the power to the cab, ignition etc. Or so I thought....
This is were the mystery begins...


So I was sitting thinking... I should at least check the electrics to the glow plugs...

Asked the better half to help....
Hazel operated the master switch & normal ignition switch while I connected a test screwdriver to the Neg on the battery & put the other end on the glow plug at the end of the bus bar...the one nearest the timing belt etc...

At this point the master switch was on... & I asked her to switch on the ignition...so I could see if power was getting to the glow plugs.... nothing, no light...

I tried the rest all the same....

Now at some point when I was doing this I asked her to switch it off...which she did & she turned off the red master switch...

The screwdriver was still on the glow plug... it light up...


So I checked it & double checked it...


The power seems to be getting to the glow plugs permanently when the redmaster switch is off....

Turn it on... then no power...

I'd say this is the reason for her suddenly not starting...

But for the life of me I don't understand why it's doing this... or were to trace it too to hopefully cure it...


And I really don't think the glow plugs should be on all the time, when... the "masterswitch" is off...


I had recorded a wee video...

But it's to big to upload on here...

Hope you can understand what I'm flapping my gums about & hopefully help me....

 

[JimCuthb64]

 

[JimCuthb64]

In the photo.... I have the keys in my hand...

Earth lead of test screwdriver on the Negitive terminal of the battery...

Pointy tip of screw driver on the end of the glow plug...

Light is on.

This means it's on all the time unless we switch on the red master switch... then it's off...

 

[bugsymike]

Good job you found that.
One small point if the glow plugs are coming on at the wrong time is there a chance some have burnt out?

 

[JimCuthb64]

Good job you found that.
One small point if the glow plugs are coming on at the wrong time is there a chance some have burnt out?

Would this be the reason why it's suddenly stopped starting??

For example.... the mechanic who fitted the engine has perhaps connected the glow plugs incorrectly.... they have been live for some time but have now burnt out...

And although there's power getting to them... they wont work.....?¿??

 

[bugsymike]

Would this be the reason why it's suddenly stopped starting??

For example.... the mechanic who fitted the engine has perhaps connected the glow plugs incorrectly.... they have been live for some time but have now burnt out...

And although there's power getting to them... they wont work.....?¿??

A guide is using a multimeter to check continuity using the Ohms setting with the wire disconnected from the heater plug you are testing.
However if you can easily remove them , first check the voltage written on the heater plugs and then test using the correct voltage .
If 11volts written on heater plugs as most common you can use jump leads from the battery. Don't hold them on firmly, I grip the body with the earth wire clamp and just lightly touch the terminal for a few seconds , it should quickly glow red.
Note some vehicles use lower voltage heater plugs, for example my 2010 Fiat Doblo 1.6 Multijet uses 4.4 Volts, so check first, also if only using a wire and not jump leads the Amperage/current will heat the wire and burn your hand

 

[Communicator]

A guide is using a multimeter to check continuity using the Ohms setting with the wire disconnected from the heater plug you are testing.
However if you can easily remove them , first check the voltage written on the heater plugs and then test using the correct voltage .
If 11volts written on heater plugs as most common you can use jump leads from the battery. Don't hold them on firmly, I grip the body with the earth wire clamp and just lightly touch the terminal for a few seconds , it should quickly glow red.
Note some vehicles use lower voltage heater plugs, for example my 2010 Fiat Doblo 1.6 Multijet uses 4.4 Volts, so check first, also if only using a wire and not jump leads the Amperage/current will heat the wire and burn your hand

While I normally agree with @bugsymike , I cannot agree on the need to use a multimeter to prove continuity. The test lamp is sufficient, if properly applied.

I am intigued by this problem. There must be either some incorrect wiring, or a fudge factor somewere. Normally a battery master switch would be connected in the battery negative. I am wondering if there has been a problem with the glowplug controller, for which replacements may be difficut to source? Perhaps the "master" switch has been added to fix such a problem. Unfortunately, I think that some wire tracing may be required so that the connection of the master switch can be determined.

I am attaching what I hope is an applicable diagram for the glow plug wiring for an Jim's vehicle. Source was forum Downloads (German original), but I have added an English colour code translation. I think that with a little thought most of the icons are understandable, but in case of difficulty I will add my best guess.

 

[JimCuthb64]

While I normally agree with @bugsymike , I cannot agree on the need to use a multimeter to prove continuity. The test lamp is sufficient, if properly applied.

I am intigued by this problem. There must be either some incorrect wiring, or a fudge factor somewere. Normally a battery master switch would be connected in the battery negative. I am wondering if there has been a problem with the glowplug controller, for which replacements may be difficut to source? Perhaps the "master" switch has been added to fix such a problem. Unfortunately, I think that some wire tracing may be required so that the connection of the master switch can be determined.

I am attaching what I hope is an applicable diagram for the glow plug wiring for an Jim's vehicle. Source was forum Downloads (German original), but I have added an English colour code translation. I think that with a little thought most of the icons are understandable, but in case of difficulty I will add my best guess.

We've had this van since Jan 2000.... just before lock down...

The master switch was fitted when we got it.

We haven't had these starting problems till recently.......

 

[Communicator]

Th

We've had this van since Jan 2000.... just before lock down...

The master switch was fitted when we got it.

We haven't had these starting problems till recently.......

That is useful information, but when was the engine change carried out? Before or after start of problem?

 

[JimCuthb64]

Before .... van will be lucky if it's done 200 miles since then...

That's why I suspect the alleged mechanic that fitted the new engine has connected something incorrectly.

 

[JimCuthb64]

Hi could anyone please give me a clue as to the physical location of the Glowplug controler/relay??

 

[Communicator]

Hi could anyone please give me a clue as to the physical location of the Glowplug controler/relay??

On my 1990 Talbot Express it was mounted on the RH inner wing above the battery. See attached photo titled "Starter Relay" its the blue object, but yours could be a different colour and more compact.
Wherever it is located, it must have heavy cables connecting to battery and glowplugs.

 

[JimCuthb64]

Thanks