General Mid-throttle injection problem in Lancia Y10

[FatNote]

Greetings all!

I think have some injection problem with my '92 Lancia Y10 which I understand has the same engine as the Panda. Maybe someone can help me? [?]

Symptoms: the engine runs fine if I don't give 'er gas... but then as I begin to depress the accelerator there comes a point where the engine starts to 'choke up' and black smoke comes billowing out the exhaust. At higher throttle it clears up and seems fine. Also, sometimes when the engine is cold the problem completely disappears!

I've been driving this car for two years now and I love her! A free-bee from my brother, she was my transport and home during an 8-month sojourn through Europe... she survived the road through an Italy-Germany-Austria-Croatia-Italy-Scandanavia-Switzerland loop of 20000kms without even once letting me down. But for the last year or so, she's been developing this problem. As I'm naturally lazy I haven't bothered to do much about it and initally it only appeared when in 5th gear after long highway burns. But slowly the problem has increased, until now I basically have a digital car: no gas ok, or full gas ok!!! :I

So, with some advice (and spare parts) from a friendly Italian father-in-law, I dismounted the distributor module. I found the vacuum advance diaphram was ripped to shreads, and a small contact to the inner wall of the module on the piece that holds the Hall effect sensor was broken. Replaced both from extra parts but that didn't make any difference.

Around this time I discovered that the problem seemed to be coming from the injector... when it started choking I observed that the injector seemed to be over-spraying (explain the black smoke and the fact that I'm spending a lot of money on gas lately!!!). That got me researching injection systems and made me think to check what I think is the O2 sensor (stuck in the exhaust manifold). Pulled it out and sure enough it was covered in black gunk! Replaced it with a cleaner looking one (thanks again to Super Mario in Italy!) and that seemed to fix the problem... FOR ONLY ABOUT 2 DAYS!!!! Then the same old problem again!!!

So, now I'm wondering whether to bite the bullet and take her in to the FIAT dealer... but I thought I'd just ask you guys if you have any suggestions?? Presuming I find the problem (could it be the MAP sensor? Faulty electronics on the distributor?? Gunk in the fuel pump or low fuel pressure???) I think it would be very wise that I set precisely the timing and reset the computer according to the instructions posted here (thanks John H!! )

Ok! Looking forward to any help!!!

 

[Martiny10]

Welcome to the forum,

This may be a common(ish) problem on.

See

 http://www.y10turbo.co.uk/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=35&TopicID=300&PagePosition=1

For a possible solution and further help.




Regards,

Martin

PS: Ignore the Y10 turbo related "solutions" - the issue is related to lack of fuel at the carburettor/SPI.

Fix It Again Tony!
Would swap for X19, Montecarlo Spider or GT.i.e in average/poor condition! Scottish based would be nice.

 

[John H]

AFAIK it is the same 999 "FIRE" engine.

What I don't know is what make and version of ECU (and corresponding sensors) you have.
I puzzled that you have a distributor (with vacuum advance), and a MAP sensor. I would have expected one or the other, but not both, as they provide virtually the same function.

It's disappointing that the O2 sensor didn't fix it - that would have been top of the list of things I would have considered, given the symptoms you describe...
By the way - what sort of oil consumption do you have?
Is it possible that you are clogging up the sensor with burnt engine oil??? Which maybe why the sensor change fixed it for a day or two.

Out of interest, what distance has the car covered, and are all the bits to do with the fuel injection still original??

If you can supply more information I will try and help - but it will be semi-educated guesswork, as I am unfamiliar with the Y10.


Regards


John H

 

[Martiny10]

Hello,

From Sept 1992, Y10s (Series 3) have a 1108CC FIRE engine as the 999CC was phased out with the Series 2. They also have a (vastly) improved gearbox as well as cosmetic modiifications (for example shield shaped front grill) and a higher standard of electrical equipment. They also have a heater that puts hot air out all the vents, not just the centre console, as was the case in series one and two.

The engine has bore/stroke 70x72MM and I assume it is the same as in Cinqueccento Sportings, so that forum may be the best for advice.

They are catalysed and fuel injected.

The bottom models had 1108CC, but a 1297CC engine was also available. So too was an automatic box.

An engine of size 1108CC was only available on Panda Selecta's and so the availability of information will be restricted accordingly.

As an aside; has anyone fitted a 1108CC with a manual gearbox? I imagine good performance is possible. The 1049CC turbo engine is fast but unreliable and the 1301CC hard to source parts for. Therefore I think the 1108CC would be the best platform for a fast Y10/Panda.

Regards,

Martin

Fix It Again Tony!
Would swap for X19, Montecarlo Spider or GT.i.e in average/poor condition! Scottish based would be nice.

 

[smokeme]

overbore th 999 fire to 1.1, this was done to my project engine but i had it sleeved as i was afraid it might crack the block under boost.

 

[FatNote]

Thanks for the fast responses!!

Well, in fact the story becomes more complicated... to say which parts are original [?][?][?]...

Just a month before the car was handed over to me we swapped out the engine with another with less kms (60000 at that time) 'cause the older (85000kms) was somewhat worn out: sucking oil (and even suffering from the same flaky throttle problem). A great experience, especially when you get to mostly just watch someone do it (thanks again Mario!)... and fun anyways to learn the names of parts in Italian!! I got to see a 'friction' for the first time cause the new engine came from an automatic. (Why we call it a clutch I don't understand! )

I got the engine from a demolition place in Spoleto for something like 230 Euros. It came out of another smashed up Y10 which was bravely still powering around the yard with another car piled on top!! It's sweet when your brother's girlfriend's dad is buddies with a demolition guy and a hobby mechanic himself!! (Hence the spare sensors, distributors, and other goodies he stowed with me before my departure.)

So, that could complicate matters a little?... am I right that this means the ECU would be the orignal and the sensors all replaced?? In fact I remember we had to jimmy-rig one of the sensors... something like the connector for the O2 sensor didn't match the cable... I think we cut the cable and attached a matching connector. And come to think of it, I seem to remember vaguely that the sensor had one less wire than the cable and so we left one unconnected. Hmmm!! That sounds suspicious!!!
Just found a good link on O2 sensors...
http://home.flash.net/~lorint/lorin/fuel/lambda.htm

As for oil consumption... high.. but I've a fairly nasty leak in the rocker-cover gasket so I can't say for sure what's burning up inside... but the car is now at about 135000kms, i.e.: the engine is around 110000kms.

Ok, my mistake, no MAP sensor. Just a guess 'cause I read something online about problems relating to rich fuel mixtures in injection vehicles...

Well... I think I'll have a look into that O2 sensor... I could verify it's operation with an oscillocope at work...

I'll let 'cha know...
Thanks again!!

 

[FatNote]

Here's an update...

Looking around the engine reminds me that it was not the O2 sensor that we modified, but just a single-wire connector that's attached to the engine block down by the oil filter... what's that for anyways? Oil temperature?? Just to be sure, I soldered up the joint where we attached the wires together and wrapped it all up in electrical tape.

For the O2 sensor...
Hooked up a multi-meter to the sensors output and tested it while parked... (my sensor's a 3-wire... 2 of them must be the heater which I observed to show a pulsing signal of 40V or so when the ignition is turned on. That's logical for a resistance heater.) My findings from the multi-meter were bang on with the findings of the guy who wrote that link I posted previously... high voltage (.9V) at open-throttle, zero voltage just after releasing the throttle, and varying between .4V and .6V at idle.

However, as my meter is pretty slow to respond, I wasn't able to verify if the signal is clean or sluggish... anyways, I haven't seen the mid-throttle problem for a few days now... but then I haven't been for a long highway cruise so I can't even be sure if that's fixed or not! If that problem returns, I hook up the scope to the O2 sensor and settle the matter once and for all!!!

But... if it's not one thing it's another. Now she consitently feels like she's missing at low rpm and especially low rpm going uphill!! [:0] Hmmm... I had the plugs changed back in December.

I got my hands on my roommate's strobe gun and set the timing to 15 degrees... made a nice score on the engine block to save me setting it again in the future.

Also, I wanted to check the spark waveform as John H. described he did in another posting. Luckily, my boss stopped me just before hooking the scope up to the lead which brings the spark to the distributor cap (what's that called?) The scope's rated at 400Vpk and the spark is what? 15000V? I probably would have fried the sucker had I connected it. Instead, I hooked it up to either of the two wires coming from the electronic gizmo on the distributor. Hmmm... I'm not sure how both should look but I saw a VERY dirty signal once I started up the car. One seemed to be almost an inverted triangular wave with some high frequency noise throughout... the other sort of a square wave but with some nasty ringing after each switch.

So, last night I took the distributor apart (again! [xx(]) and cleaned up all the electrical contacts as John H. did once. This morning same story...

Today, I'll check the signal on the scope again and reset the ECU... I let y'all know if there's anything interesting.

PS: does anyone have an idea (or better a photo) of how those electronics signal SHOULD look??? And a short explaination of what it does??? It gives the trigger for the timing, right??

Cheers!

 

[John H]

Originally posted by FatNote
Here's an update...

Looking around the engine reminds me that it was not the O2 sensor that we modified, but just a single-wire connector that's attached to the engine block down by the oil filter... what's that for anyways? Oil temperature?? Just to be sure, I soldered up the joint where we attached the wires together and wrapped it all up in electrical tape.

that would be the oil pressure warning switch.
It's a single wire on the ones I've seen.

Originally posted by FatNote

For the O2 sensor...
Hooked up a multi-meter to the sensors output and tested it while parked... (my sensor's a 3-wire... 2 of them must be the heater which I observed to show a pulsing signal of 40V or so when the ignition is turned on. That's logical for a resistance heater.) My findings from the multi-meter were bang on with the findings of the guy who wrote that link I posted previously... high voltage (.9V) at open-throttle, zero voltage just after releasing the throttle, and varying between .4V and .6V at idle.

However, as my meter is pretty slow to respond, I wasn't able to verify if the signal is clean or sluggish... anyways, I haven't seen the mid-throttle problem for a few days now... but then I haven't been for a long highway cruise so I can't even be sure if that's fixed or not! If that problem returns, I hook up the scope to the O2 sensor and settle the matter once and for all!!!

A meter isn't terribly helpful for checking the switching voltage from the O2 sensor during normal running: you can't see if it is switching fast enough.

The voltages you quote from the O2 snsor are ballpark figures.

A figure of 40 volts you might see for the odd millisecond across the coil primary during the ignition "burn", but I understand the heater to be 12 volt driven.. and it's wiring isn't near the O2 sensor.
Odd.

Originally posted by FatNote


But... if it's not one thing it's another. Now she consitently feels like she's missing at low rpm and especially low rpm going uphill!! [:0] Hmmm... I had the plugs changed back in December.

GOK

Originally posted by FatNote

I got my hands on my roommate's strobe gun and set the timing to 15 degrees... made a nice score on the engine block to save me setting it again in the future.

There are timing marks already at both ends of the "FIRE" engines I've looked at.

Originally posted by FatNote

Also, I wanted to check the spark waveform as John H. described he did in another posting. Luckily, my boss stopped me just before hooking the scope up to the lead which brings the spark to the distributor cap (what's that called?) The scope's rated at 400Vpk and the spark is what? 15000V? I probably would have fried the sucker had I connected it. Instead, I hooked it up to either of the two wires coming from the electronic gizmo on the distributor. Hmmm... I'm not sure how both should look but I saw a VERY dirty signal once I started up the car. One seemed to be almost an inverted triangular wave with some high frequency noise throughout... the other sort of a square wave but with some nasty ringing after each switch.

So, last night I took the distributor apart (again! [xx(]) and cleaned up all the electrical contacts as John H. did once. This morning same story...

Today, I'll check the signal on the scope again and reset the ECU... I let y'all know if there's anything interesting.

I've posted all sorts of things, here - and elsewhere - but I can't imagine I would ever have suggested putting a 'scope lead direct on the secondary of the ignition coil.
In this thread:
https://www.fiatforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1746
in the comment posted 25/05/2003 : 21:46:47 it clearly says primary.

Originally posted by FatNote


PS: does anyone have an idea (or better a photo) of how those electronics signal SHOULD look??? And a short explaination of what it does??? It gives the trigger for the timing, right??

Cheers!

This is one of many sites which detail the coil primary waveform:
http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/primary_ignition.html

 

[FatNote]

My humble apologies John H.: you certainly DID NOT suggest putting the scope on the secondary waveform!!! I re-read your post after the encounter with my boss... and clearly PRIMARY! Just that I'm an idiot and didn't know what all that jazz was about... a little reading on the web and I think it's getting more clear now. In fact I found that link to the waveform also just yesterday. Nice to see... yup, ringing (oscillations) in the waveform are normal! But thanks John H.!!

So, the so called 'mid-throttle injection problem' seems to be fixed... for now. Just to clairify, the heater I was talking about (from what I understand) is a small heater that is INSIDE the O2 sensor, to bring it up to operational temp more quickly... hence the 3 leads instead of just one. Hmm... I'm pretty sure I saw a pulsing 40V signal on the multi-meter... if I have more problems with the O2 sensor I'll slap the scope on there and check again to be sure.

But back to this 'missing' problem...

Well... as I was setting the ECU the other day, I noticed that a lag in the idle was associated with a faintly audible clicking sound... that reminded me that I remember seeing a spike every now and again when checking the primary waveform on the scope the day before. And everytime it begins to click, the idle gets choppy, and the clicking is rather irratic. Hmmm... unless I'm wrong (which is very likely :I)... that sounds like it's discharging somewhere outside! So, I'm gonna have a good look in there pretty soon and maybe replace the cables to the spark plugs...

 

[John H]

No worries.

I'm just a bit (more) grumpy working nights |)|)[xx(]

 

[FatNote]

An update...

Changed the wires to the plugs last night. New ones seem newer (stiffer) and snapped on cleanly to the plugs. But there's still an intermmitent barely-audible clicking sound and the corresponding choke-up of the idle.

The sound is coming from somewhere left of the carburator, behind the rocker cover. The alternator? A faulty spark plug? What about that thing on the carburator which adjusts the throttle when the engine is cold... can it be clicking? How does it work anyways? [?]

Hmmm... well, tonight I'll try changing all the plugs... and I'll replace the rocker-cover gasket. Guess it doesn't help that one of the plugs is sitting in a small pool of oil... :I

 

[Martiny10]

Could be the gearbox - when I changed the rocker cover gasket last year I thought I had left something inside because of the ticking noise.

However it was just the gearbox. As a test, see if putting the clutch down makes it go away.

Also could be the ignition coil - that 'ticks' on my car too.

Both of these are to the right of the car but with low level noise it's hard to isolate. On the left is the alternator and timing belts - you could check them for tightness too, but when slack they don't tick, well not IMHE - they squeal!

Regards,

Martin

Fix It Again Tony!
Would swap for X19, Montecarlo Spider or GT.i.e in average/poor condition! Scottish based would be nice.

 

[FatNote]

Found what I was looking for. [8D]

Just happened to be working into the twilight replacing the rocker gasket... and would be the plugs... (only now I'm stuck without a tool to do the job!! :I Damnit! [!])

But as it was getting dark I fired up the car anyways, just to see if drying out the oil around the plugs made any difference. The clicking noise again... and sure enough, I could see frequent discharging down in the oily well of the 2nd plug arching to the engine block.

Now I'm miffed that I can't pull that plug out!! Arrrrggg!! (Sometimes communicating with French clerks is really damn frustrating!!! [xx(])

 

[John H]

Number 2 is a pig to work on:
I did some compression tests a few weeks ago, and couldn't get the adapter in that one.

It's all I can do to get the plug back in, and have to use a funny double jointed tool for the final tighten up:

there doesn't seem to be room for a standard socket set adapter on a straight, or universal drive.

 

[FatNote]

Ya... crap, eh?
What about removing the carborator??? Is that simple? Or would I be messing with some sensitive stuff???
Or, there's that piece of the carborator (that has a four pin connector in it) which is getting in the way... can it come off??? Would it be wise to do so??
Well... the Fire engine is a dream to work on compared to the V8 chevy I worked on when I was growing up... there's some poor engineering!!! [:0]

 

[Enzo]

It's all I can do to get the plug back in, and have to use a funny double jointed tool for the final tighten up:

there doesn't seem to be room for a standard socket set adapter on a straight, or universal drive.

I've always used that kind of tool to remove the plugs...and never had the idea of using another one[:0]!If it exists, of course


<--Can my face look like this if I meet a Danish and/or a Swedish supporter!?

 

[Martiny10]

I find no 3 to be the hardest because of the fuel pump + hoses.

Fix It Again Tony!
Would swap for X19, Montecarlo Spider or GT.i.e in average/poor condition! Scottish based would be nice.

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Enzo
I've always used that kind of tool to remove the plugs...and never had the idea of using another one[:0]!If it exists, of course

is what I meant - on the end of a half-inch socket set wrench.

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Martiny10
I find no 3 to be the hardest because of the fuel pump + hoses.

You should try on the early injected versions - the throttle body and its various connectors get in tne way a lot.

 

[FatNote]

Well...

I managed to get the spark plug out from number 2 cylinder.. yup, a bit of a nightmare!! But ok in the end... don't ever take your car to "Station Marche", the guy must have totally cranked the plugs down so that no one else could ever get them out... plug 2 - where there was discharging - was completely cracked and fell apart as I removed it. Had to be careful not to let some pieces fall into the hole...

So, that helps... (almost) no more stalling at lights, and no more sudden loss of power on hills and such.

BUT STILL THIS CURSED MID-THROTTLE INJECTION PROBLEM.
I've looked at the 'injector' again and when this problem arises the spray really seems "yukky". But now I'm not sure it's too much spray, but maybe not enough... so could it be the fuel pump?

The fuel pump is running after the key is turned... and mostly the car runs fine... but every now and again...

Could it be something else that's between the injector and the fuel pump on the fuel line?? What else is there????? Could the pump be intermittantly working, or is it more likely that it works, or doesn't work.

HEEEEEELLLPP!!!!!

Thanks!