Technical Loss of power

[Andybits]

Hi, we're to start.. some 5 months of ongoing problem.. lost power climbing hills, first attempt at fix was new fule pump & new injectors fitted. This had some improvement but the problem kept coming back, in September it got worse, no power after engine warm and could hardly get it around town, took too 3 different garages who all scratched heads struggling to diagnose due to the fact that it's 24 years old and can't plug into computer. One old school mechanic suggested the fule injection pump, so I had this removed & took it to a disle specialist lab in Lincoln.
They found a fault and I had it fully refurbished (£800).. it was fitted last Thursday, I went away to Beverly for weekend, around 45miles from we're i live,absolutely fine all the way, lots of power.. on way back the issue started again and got worse, managed to get it home and back in drive, so iam now completely stuck, spent close to 2k and still have the problem.
One mechanic did mention a lift pump in tank.. I have noticed that when first journey on Fri and running well I had just over half tank disle, on way back dropped below half and power loss started. Turbo all been checked and new cat fitted.. so at a point of not knowing what to do now.

 

[Communicator]

For a start your x230 model 2.8jtd does have an OBD port. It is not an OBD2 connector, but just a 3 way connector with only 2 used, sited close to the air filter. An adaptor lead is required, to attach a code reader. Most garages will not have this necessary lead, and will probably struggle to identify the OBD port.

If you wish to read codes your self the software Multiecuscan which runs on a Windows computer is frequently recommended. The company "Gendan" receives favourable reports for advice and supply, including the adapter lead.

Without reading the any error codes, you are in a guessing game.

At first sight your problem seems to be boost pressure related, but I do not understand the engine temperature connection.

Boost pressure on the 2.8jtd is limited only to a maximum by the wastegate, there is no control from the ECU. Boost pressure is measured by the absolute pressure sensor located on the inlet manifold, fuel injection pressure and duration are controlled by the the ECU. The manifold pressure sensor also measures intake temperature.

Other points to consider are leaks on the intercooler hoses which become more flexible with a warm engine.

@bugsymike may be able to offer other suggestions, based on his considerable experience.

 

[Futchy]

Hi, we're to start.. some 5 months of ongoing problem.. lost power climbing hills, first attempt at fix was new fule pump & new injectors fitted. This had some improvement but the problem kept coming back, in September it got worse, no power after engine warm and could hardly get it around town, took too 3 different garages who all scratched heads struggling to diagnose due to the fact that it's 24 years old and can't plug into computer. One old school mechanic suggested the fule injection pump, so I had this removed & took it to a disle specialist lab in Lincoln.
They found a fault and I had it fully refurbished (£800).. it was fitted last Thursday, I went away to Beverly for weekend, around 45miles from we're i live,absolutely fine all the way, lots of power.. on way back the issue started again and got worse, managed to get it home and back in drive, so iam now completely stuck, spent close to 2k and still have the problem.
One mechanic did mention a lift pump in tank.. I have noticed that when first journey on Fri and running well I had just over half tank disle, on way back dropped below half and power loss started. Turbo all been checked and new cat fitted.. so at a point of not knowing what to do now.

I had same issue the thing that fixed mine was oil it apparently had 10w 40 and this was to glupy when turbo kicked in, so the way I fixed it was I filled up oil to maximum with 0w 40 so about 35% of the 1ltr, after that never did it again, hope this helps as it can be dangerous losing power suddenly, again I also had paid 800 for gearbox, got sparks, coils nothing worked I read manual and sussed it myself, g luck

 

[bugsymike]

"@bugsymike may be able to offer other suggestions, based on his considerable experience."
Very kind, but I would argue against as tend to be forgetting what little I knew.
Interested to know what the Diesel specialist in Lincoln did to effect some short improvement?
When performance down is there any black smoke, as in low boost so fuel not burning correctly?
If not, then more towards fueling side possibly although as @Communicator mentions the Multiecuscan tool would be a helpful guide in diagnosis.
@Futchy comments interesting, however 10w40 syn. is recommended and what I used to run my Iveco Daily's on using genuine Iveco oils in same Sofim 2.8 engines.

 

[Andybits]

For a start your x230 model 2.8jtd does have an OBD port. It is not an OBD2 connector, but just a 3 way connector with only 2 used, sited close to the air filter. An adaptor lead is required, to attach a code reader. Most garages will not have this necessary lead, and will probably struggle to identify the OBD port.

If you wish to read codes your self the software Multiecuscan which runs on a Windows computer is frequently recommended. The company "Gendan" receives favourable reports for advice and supply, including the adapter lead.

Without reading the any error codes, you are in a guessing game.

At first sight your problem seems to be boost pressure related, but I do not understand the engine temperature connection.

Boost pressure on the 2.8jtd is limited only to a maximum by the wastegate, there is no control from the ECU. Boost pressure is measured by the absolute pressure sensor located on the inlet manifold, fuel injection pressure and duration are controlled by the the ECU. The manifold pressure sensor also measures intake temperature.

Other points to consider are leaks on the intercooler hoses which become more flexible with a warm engine.

@bugsymike may be able to offer other suggestions, based on his considerable experience.

Many thanks for the post, iam currently trying to track down adapter, definitely worth a look , the temperature thing isn't probably an issue as ok driving for an hour at 60mph, was on way back after around 10 miles, thinking towards tank issue as when fule below half tank is when problem starts.. going to fill up and see if it still happens.. no black smoke.

 

[Andybits]

"@bugsymike may be able to offer other suggestions, based on his considerable experience."
Very kind, but I would argue against as tend to be forgetting what little I knew.
Interested to know what the Diesel specialist in Lincoln did to effect some short improvement?
When performance down is there any black smoke, as in low boost so fuel not burning correctly?
If not, then more towards fueling side possibly although as @Communicator mentions the Multiecuscan tool would be a helpful guide in diagnosis.
@Futchy comments interesting, however 10w40 syn. is recommended and what I used to run my Iveco Daily's on using genuine Iveco oils in same Sofim 2.8 engines.

Thanks for reply, the disle specialist only had pump, not vehicle.. they said a pin had jamed from bearings and scored into pump body, so replaced that and full refurbishment. No smoke when performance down.. had a chat with them and suggested I fill tank up to see if problem goes away.. we're thinking lift pump or flexible pipes from fule tank.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for reply, the disle specialist only had pump, not vehicle.. they said a pin had jamed from bearings and scored into pump body, so replaced that and full refurbishment. No smoke when performance down.. had a chat with them and suggested I fill tank up to see if problem goes away.. we're thinking lift pump or flexible pipes from fule tank.

So possible fueling issue, this can be anything from a fault at electric low pressure pump possibly in tank (Ivecos had on chassis rail) fuel pump relay, fuel line from tank to filter , fuel filter, etc.
Someone on another thread recently had a blocked filter gauze on fuel tank pick up in the fuel tank which restricted fuel flow .

 

[Futchy]

It's crazy how many diffrent things it could be, I was under the I pression that if fuel was cut engine would definitely cut out, mine felt like I suddenly was towing 10 tons behind even if I left my foot down, soon as I released the power came back, sometimes would do 10 times some times 0, never overheated although fuel usage seemed heavy.

 

[bugsymike]

It's crazy how many diffrent things it could be, I was under the I pression that if fuel was cut engine would definitely cut out, mine felt like I suddenly was towing 10 tons behind even if I left my foot down, soon as I released the power came back, sometimes would do 10 times some times 0, never overheated although fuel usage seemed heavy.

One reason I stayed in the motortrade was every job was different, so since 1969 it was never boring, although I should have gone self employed much earlier than 1982.
One thing you can be sure is the person who claims to know everything, is a liar.
Poor fuel flow can reduce/restrict pressure at injectors.
Your suspicions re oil grade can be equally valid if everything gummed up and restricted etc. Possibly stopping turbo spinning up fast, though unsure if that would bring power back after releasing and pressing pedal again, maybe a leak on an intercooler.
I have seen what you describe with some "fly by wire" throttle pedal faults in the past on Fords.
One thing I do when I buy a s/h vehicle is warm it up then use engine flush to clean all the muck from previous use, then a new oil and filter.
Not everyone agrees as some are concerned it may dislodge/move muck to cause other problems on certain engines (possibly twin air systems with hydraulic controlled engine valves etc.) however I would always try to stay away from buying that sort of technology.

 

[Futchy]

One reason I stayed in the motortrade was every job was different, so since 1969 it was never boring, although I should have gone self employed much earlier than 1982.
One thing you can be sure is the person who claims to know everything, is a liar.
Poor fuel flow can reduce/restrict pressure at injectors.
Your suspicions re oil grade can be equally valid if everything gummed up and restricted etc. Possibly stopping turbo spinning up fast, though unsure if that would bring power back after releasing and pressing pedal again, maybe a leak on an intercooler.
I have seen what you describe with some "fly by wire" throttle pedal faults in the past on Fords.
One thing I do when I buy a s/h vehicle is warm it up then use engine flush to clean all the muck from previous use, then a new oil and filter.
Not everyone agrees as some are concerned it may dislodge/move muck to cause other problems on certain engines (possibly twin air systems with hydraulic controlled engine valves etc.) however I would always try to stay away from buying that sort of technology.

Yer definitely a lot to learn i didn't know a thing till few years back now do most things myself with a YouTube guide, the loss of power has stayed away so it' seems to have sorted it, but it could just be a coincidence we'll see, the bolt issue I've been having, bolts literally working way out, thread gets wiped, it's 100% the wheels, at full lock there actually touching something only very lightly , but I put on brand new hubs got new correct bolts, and 3 was later 1 by 1 they slowly break, all correctly greased all arms, etc seem good ,(rubber & visual) . I think the previous owner, has crashed the front right into something, as there signs of reshape on wheel arch , muf behind, and this is the 1st wheel to thread bolts, I also think the bolts are to small for this alloy. The bolts are only entering hub treads for I'd say 20% of the length or at least that's what's being destroyed.

 

[bugsymike]

Yer definitely a lot to learn i didn't know a thing till few years back now do most things myself with a YouTube guide, the loss of power has stayed away so it' seems to have sorted it, but it could just be a coincidence we'll see, the bolt issue I've been having, bolts literally working way out, thread gets wiped, it's 100% the wheels, at full lock there actually touching something only very lightly , but I put on brand new hubs got new correct bolts, and 3 was later 1 by 1 they slowly break, all correctly greased all arms, etc seem good ,(rubber & visual) . I think the previous owner, has crashed the front right into something, as there signs of reshape on wheel arch , muf behind, and this is the 1st wheel to thread bolts, I also think the bolts are to small for this alloy. The bolts are only entering hub treads for I'd say 20% of the length or at least that's what's being destroyed.

In the past I have seen several reasons for wheel nut/bolt failure.
As you say bolts not going in deep enough into threads in the hubs is a main contributor.
It is possible to buy longer thread studs from wheel suppliers etc. However you need to measure the length to get the right depth in the threads. If it goes in too far it could cause other problems.
Non standard wheels can be a problem, along with the locking taper not matching the nuts/bolts used.
Some have the wrong centre preventing a secure central location of the wheel.
Another thing is after they have come loose a few times the hub becomes damaged so even correct new parts do not secure correctly. Although I see you have fitted new hubs.
With your suspicions re a previous accident could there be anything causing the axle/hub etc. to run out of true, setting up an inbalance/vibration with the effect of rattling them loose?
Any contact/rubbing is not recommended obviously as signs of damage especially if one side only.
Are the track rod end threads equal both sides, sometimes a poor tyre"specialist " adjusts one side only , but also if in an accident it may have been done to compensate for another fault.
After correct tightening torque with good clean threads (not over oiled or greased) after a run for a few days it is a good idea to recheck torque, although I suspect this is something you are aware of .
I always liked the commercial idea of bright coloured pointers showing early warning of loose nuts/studs.
Though not really a option on private cars.

 

[LesB]

I'm looking at any threads that relate to loss of power. My vehicle is the 2.0 TD but symptoms and cure may be related.
Have you resolved the issue yet and if so, what was the problem?

 

[Andybits]

Hi, no cure yet.. looking at it again next week, am going to get the wastegate looked at.. someone had similar problems and replaced actuator/ wastegate which solved it.. Will let you know.

 

[Andybits]

Dose anybody know if the wastegate has to be set up ?, basically it's in same position near end of threads.. if I push it in and out the van appears to run better for while.. just a thought as don't know we're to go now..

 

[bugsymike]

Dose anybody know if the wastegate has to be set up ?, basically it's in same position near end of threads.. if I push it in and out the van appears to run better for while.. just a thought as don't know we're to go now..

If wastegate vacuum controlled it will be worth checking pipes etc. Plus the wastgate actuator if vacuum controlled.

 

[Communicator]

Dose anybody know if the wastegate has to be set up ?, basically it's in same position near end of threads.. if I push it in and out the van appears to run better for while.. just a thought as don't know we're to go now..

On the basic 2.8jtd, 8140,43s, the wastegate is contolled directly by the boost presure, which it limits to a maximum. With this engine, problems can arise with the linkage between the capsule, and the wastegate failing.
I would not expect the link to move easily under hand pressure.

I think that you need to monitor boost pressure, either directly with a gauge tapped into the capsule feed (see small pipe from turbo compressor in attached photo), or via MES.

 

[bugsymike]

Has the vacuum actuator and rubber pipe been tested for leaks, also intercooler and pipes to inlet manifold?
Usually if actuator and pipe it will be permanently down on power, if intercooler side it may be only when full boost required.
Re adjustment from memory with engine off it will be loose and when running the wastegate will be held shut until pressure to strong so waste gate will open slightly to bleed off boost pressure.
When increasing performance on the 2.8 in my boat I shortened the rod which held the waste gate shut longer increasing the boost, first I increased the fuel at the pump so it black smoked then increased boost till no smoke then more fuel etc.
Only to a sensible amount and I used a pressure gauge to measure boost pressure.
Anyway not something needed for road use.

 

[Andybits]

Many thanks everyone for idea's on my long running and expensive issue, however I believe I've sorted it today, I took the fule gauge sender unit out of tank and a small filter on the bottom was blocked with loads of crud, cleaned it up and been for half hour drive, up & down some hills to push it hard.. driving perfect now ,see pic of filter..

 

[bugsymike]

That's good news, it may be worth putting some Biocide additive in the fuel tank when you top up in case any bugs in it, they love old diesel.
Now who said this? "Someone on another thread recently had a blocked filter gauze on fuel tank pick up in the fuel tank which restricted fuel flow ."

 

[The Panda Nut]

So possible fueling issue, this can be anything from a fault at electric low pressure pump possibly in tank (Ivecos had on chassis rail) fuel pump relay, fuel line from tank to filter , fuel filter, etc.
Someone on another thread recently had a blocked filter gauze on fuel tank pick up in the fuel tank which restricted fuel flow .

That comment about half a tank rings bells in my distant past but I cant summon the thought yet... Split fuel pickup pipe ij the tank?