Technical LED Headlights

[TOX1C]

I've updated my 100HP H4 bulbs to Philips 130%, but in my opinion the lights are still poor. So after much researching I've just splashed out on a set of Philips LED bulbs.

http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/headlamp-cree-led/led-headlight-kits-generation3-philips/h4-philips-luxeon-led-headlight

I'll update the thread once they are fitted.

 

[quotethepigeon]

Drive around in the newer shape Panda for a few days then you'll appreciate how bright the older ones were lol.

 

[staffordmike]

I came across a long running thread in a TVR forum by a guy who'd fitted LED's which made interesting reading. I was only looking as I have a motorbike with 6v lights and was wondering if there was an LED upgrade. I'll be interested to see how you get on, I'm sure that they are the future.
*edit* It was actually Pistonheads, here's a link.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1455474

 

[jrkitching]

Please do not fit these. They are not legal for road use in the UK.

The headlamp reflector is designed for a particular illumination source; that is to say the source size, position and photometric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.

The existing reflectors and lenses are not designed for these bulbs, and the correct cutoff angles will not be there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights are well established and documented, and are there for a reason. LED headlamp bulbs rely on multi point emission and the beam pattern will be substantially different as a result.

Don't be selfish and fit these just so that you can see better; you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking directly at the sun. Please don't do it.

If you want to improve things, look carefully at your reflectors. If they are in any way pitted, flaking, rusty or just plain foggy, replace them.

Insurance should be another consideration - if you declare these as a mod, I doubt anyone would insure you, and if you don't, the insurers could quite reasonably refuse liability if you were involved in an accident with the bulbs switched on. So if you drive with these at night, in addition to breaking the lighting regulations, you will also most likely be driving uninsured.

With a 6000K colour temperature, they will stick out like a sore thumb and a zealous, well informed traffic officer with nothing better to do could seriously spoil your night.

But at the end of the day (intentional pun), it's your choice - and your responsibility.

I'm sure that they are the future.

I'd agree - but only when they are paired with appropriate reflectors and, if deemed necessary by the type approval folks, headlamp washers and self-levelling.

Higher output headlamps require more precise beam placement and control, and that costs serious money; it's not just a matter of installing bulbs with some extra lumens.

 

[g8rpi]

Please do not fit these. They are not legal for road use in the UK.

The headlamp reflector is designed for a particular illumination source; that is to say the source size, position and photometric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.

The existing reflectors and lenses are not designed for these bulbs, and the correct cutoff angles will not be there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights are well established and documented, and are there for a reason. LED headlamp bulbs rely on multi point emission and the beam pattern will be substantially different as a result.

Don't be selfish and fit these just so that you can see better; you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking directly at the sun. Please don't do it.

If you want to improve things, look carefully at your reflectors. If they are in any way pitted, flaking, rusty or just plain foggy, replace them.

Insurance should be another consideration - if you declare these as a mod, I doubt anyone would insure you, and if you don't, the insurers could quite reasonably refuse liability if you were involved in an accident with the bulbs switched on. So if you drive with these at night, in addition to breaking the lighting regulations, you will also most likely be driving uninsured.

With a 6000K colour temperature, they will stick out like a sore thumb and a zealous, well informed traffic officer with nothing better to do could seriously spoil your night.

But at the end of the day (intentional pun), it's your choice - and your responsibility.



I'd agree - but only when they are paired with appropriate reflectors and, if deemed necessary by the type approval folks, headlamp washers and self-levelling.

Higher output headlamps require more precise beam placement and control, and that costs serious money; it's not just a matter of installing bulbs with some extra lumens.

:yeahthat:
Compeletly illegal for road use. Seller is abusing the Philips name implying they are made by Philips. Lumileds (who might have made the LED chips used) are (part?) owned by Philips, but that's all.
Over 2000lm you need auto aligign ment and washers. It illegal to even have these fitted during the day. Passsing an MOT does NOT mean they are OK. You will have pattrn issues so they may not even pass the MOT.
Don't do it!
Robert G8RPI.

 

[TOX1C]

Well we'll see. I'm aware of the self levelling and washer debate but this is only for OEM fitments, there is no requirement to fit them for retro-fit bulbs or projectors.

Having discussed the fitment with a MoT tester the car will pass if the beam pattern is satisfactory - if it's not I will remove them. I know passing an MoT doesn't make them "legal" but I'm aware of that and willing to accept the consequences - but safety DOES come first and hopefully brighter headlights with stop drivers pulling out in front of me.

There are several web sites showing beam patterns with these H4 bulbs that are actually better than OEM with less scatter. I'm fairly sure the pattern will be OK, the positioning of the LED's is the same as the original bulb, also 6000K looks white from what I've seen.

 

[quotethepigeon]

It isn't the brightness of your headlights that cause other drivers to pull out on you. That's just how people drive!

If you are concerned about safety you wouldn't fit headlights that will produce OTT glare causing problems for other drivers and most likely pissing them off to the point where they go out of their way to **** you off.

 

[AB100]

It isn't the brightness of your headlights that cause other drivers to pull out on you. That's just how people drive!
.

Yep. They see a small car. It's therefore obviously OK to pull out. We've driven with dipped beam permanently on for the last 18 years. Makes no difference (though nowadays fewer folks flash us to remind us our lights are on, what with the advent of DLRLs).


The same people are also the ones that drive in fog with no lights or sidelights - I couldn't count how many I saw last week.

 

[jrkitching]

I know passing an MoT doesn't make them "legal" but I'm aware of that and willing to accept the consequences

Here's what the consequences might be:

1. The police pull you over the first night you drive with these fitted

2. They phone your insurers to find out if they've been declared as a modification

3. The insurers say "no" and say you have broken the terms of your insurance, confirm you're not covered and cancel your policy

4. The police issue you with a fixed penalty ticket for no insurance and have the car towed away

5. You are left to walk home contemplating 6 points on your licence, a £300 penalty, the same again to recover the car, and a massive hike in insurance for the next few years for having failed to declare a modification, having insurance cancelled by the insurer and driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

Furthermore, if you are involved in an accident and someone is killed or seriously injured, the consequences could be much, much worse; you could end up paying the bills for the rest of your life. That someone could even be you, in which case you will have paid for this with your own life.

The construction & use regulations are there for a very good reason, but there's always some eejit that thinks they know better.

 

[daveofkent]

Here's what the consequences might be:

1. The police pull you over the first night you drive with these fitted

2. They phone your insurers to find out if they've been declared as a modification

3. The insurers say "no" and say you have broken the terms of your insurance, confirm you're not covered and cancel your policy

4. The police issue you with a fixed penalty ticket for no insurance and have the car towed away

5. You are left to walk home contemplating 6 points on your licence, a £300 penalty, the same again to recover the car, and a massive hike in insurance for the next few years for having failed to declare a modification, having insurance cancelled by the insurer and driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

Furthermore, if you are involved in an accident and someone is killed or seriously injured, the consequences could be much, much worse; you could end up paying the bills for the rest of your life. That someone could even be you, in which case you will have paid for this with you life.

The construction & use regulations are there for a very good reason, but there's always some eejit that thinks they know better.

Wow, I think the OP's had enough telling off now. Im sure he realised after the 1st post. I like this forum but I thought it was for car enthusiasts. There's so much repetitive unnecessary reposting the same stuff on that topic (your insurance will be invalidated). Can we assume he is using them on private property or not UK and have done with it? He's not going to even show us if they are any good now. So that others can see how crap or not they are. It will be the same with any topics that deviate away from "This is why I use only original Fiat Parts".

 

[TOX1C]

Well thanks for that, I'm sure glad I posted. You are making a huge assumption that I will not be advising my insurance company of the increased level of safety that (hopefully) the new bulbs will bring. I didn't realise that a car conforming to OEM standard will be "safe enough", and that improving the car by fitting better tyres, larger (non-OEM) mirrors, or better dampers or coil-overs is unnecessary?

Does everyone advise their insurance of a change of tyre size to 195/50 x 15 or when fitting better dampers or coil-overs?

I'm now reconsidering if I should bother reporting the results of my trial; I don't want to be accused of corrupting innocent forum members.

 

[g8rpi]

Well we'll see. I'm aware of the self levelling and washer debate but this is only for OEM fitments, there is no requirement to fit them for retro-fit bulbs or projectors.
<SNIP>
.

Were do you get the no requirement for retrofit bulbs or projectors? ANY mandatory (or additional) exterior light fitted (even in daylight) to a road vehicle must meet the regulations and be approved and "E" marked, including the lens. Currently replaceable, generic LED "bulbs" are not approved, you have to change the whole fixture, but regulators are working on this.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[g8rpi]

Wow, I think the OP's had enough telling off now. Im sure he realised after the 1st post. I like this forum but I thought it was for car enthusiasts. There's so much repetitive unnecessary reposting the same stuff on that topic (your insurance will be invalidated). Can we assume he is using them on private property or not UK and have done with it? He's not going to even show us if they are any good now. So that others can see how crap or not they are. It will be the same with any topics that deviate away from "This is why I use only original Fiat Parts".

I'm plead Guilty to repeating "it's not legal", my defence is that people obviously don't know (or care). If they keep posting I keep replying. On how good they are, most of these OPs go very quiet aft the headlamps are fitted, because they are no good.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Leeski]

Does everyone advise their insurance of a change of tyre size to 195/50 x 15 or when fitting better dampers or coil-overs?

I'm now reconsidering if I should bother reporting the results of my trial; I don't want to be accused of corrupting innocent forum members.

As far as dampers are concerned, they're the same part just not an OEM manufactured one. I don't want to get drawn into this debate but I do get pissed off when people drive around with lights that are terribly aligned or obviously cheap aftermarket items that just don't work except to blind people.

 

[jrkitching]

Does everyone advise their insurance of a change of tyre size to 195/50 x 15 or when fitting better dampers or coil-overs?

Tyres; yes if it's a size different to one listed by the manufacturer as approved for that make, model and variant of car.

Dampers; probably not if they are functionally equivalent (you can fit aftermarket parts which are a direct replacement as part of routine maintenance, provided they carry the appropriate certification markings where these are required by law).

Coilovers; yes, definitely these should be notified.

If you are in any doubt whatsoever, it's safest to declare it.

The insurers most likely won't bother checking for a minor claim, but if there is a serious amount of money at stake, expect them to crawl over the car with a fine tooth comb - and these folks know exactly what to look for.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

HEAVY, MAN! Phew ... ,

A dozen or so of those fancy bulb kits would buy my Panda. Kinda OTT really.

I've got Nightbreakers, and they work well for me. Bright, and no problems from other drivers.

 

[g8rpi]

I found an older DfT document on HIDs thet clears up a few things. It's about HIDs but LEDs are the same.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....ormation-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf
to sumarise,
1/OEM and aftermarket headlamps (complete approved assemblies) using HIDs are OK IF they fully comply with EU regulations. They DO NOT comply with the UK road vehicle lighting regulations.
2/ Replacement lamps for fitting in assemblies designed for filaments are NOT approved in any circumstance.
3/ New one on me, DfT say that it's illegal to SELL them.

I do note that the seller the OP used has lots of disclaimers in their terms and conditions, including a statement that they are "not 100% legal" (= illegal). Also they don't give any physical address or telephone number, or VAT number. Personally I don't buy from anyone without an address or telephone number.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

God help every other road user he comes across, the light scatter for these will be horrific.

One cannot simply defy the laws of physics, not matter how got you are at breaking laws! :bang:

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just to redress the balance here slightly... (or provoke further stern comments? - the latter I shall ignore)

The filaments in a halogen bulb are quite small, and wound into a compact cylindrical shape. The 'baffle' inside the bulb carefully controls light from the dipped filament so it illuminates about 195 degrees (angle) of the top part of the mirrored reflector (the 15 degrees beyond horizontal gives the upwards 'flick' to the left seen when the beam is shone on a wall. Because the point is slightly forward of perfect focus and only filling the top part of the reflector, it shines downwards at an angle. The physics of a parabola dictate this.

(see this page, half way down: http://uc.fmf.uni-lj.si/com/Parabola/parabola.html )

Aftemarket HID bulbs have a much larger 'blob' of glass, where the light shines from, and generally less of a baffle too. The light source is more diffuse too. This is why they don't work well when used with lights designed for halogen - because the size of the source is too big and fuzzy and so spills over into the 'wrong parts' of the reflector, causing poor beam shape, or dazzle.

For main beam, the halogen filament is right at the optical centre of the parabolic reflector and so sends a straight parallel beam forwards.

Aftermarket HIDs 'cheat' for dip and main by using a solenoid to physically push or pull the glass tube of the 'bulb' in and out - so more or less giving dip or main from just one source.

But, the LED lamps the OP refers to have two small, pinpoint light sources - about the same size as the halogen filaments. And these are precisely mounted with a baffle that controls where that light goes from the front-most LED, just like the halogen bulb. So, in principle at least, they can deliver the same, controlled dip beam pattern as the original bulb because they will only illuminate the 'right parts' of the reflector - but the beams will be brighter. So long as the lamp unit is aligned correctly, there should be no more dazzle (oncoming cars seeing part of the beam shining directly at them) than with the original bulbs.

Most of the buses in my area have been converted from halogen to LED headlights - and they are fine. Brighter, but well controlled light output.

The legality of these bulbs may still be in question, but the rules of physics (that parabolic reflector and a correctly placed point source of light) mean they should be able to give a well controlled but brighter beam - just like the original-fit LED headlights used by Mercedes, Audi and others...

Me? I use 130% brighter halogens (e-marked), and they are OK on the dark winding lanes around here But, every bulb in my house is an LED, and in time, all cars lights will be too. The filament bulb is pretty similar in concept to that designed by Joseph Swan in Darlington in the 1880s. Maybe now is the time to move forwards from that...?

 

[nobbles]

Irrespective of the legal issues one of the biggest constraints of the led lights on the Porsche macan, seat Ibiza etc is the heat. All these new units have a fan like a computer to keep the components cool, it is a big issue and now one of the basic starting points if you are designing a new led headlamp assembly. How does your new kit deal with this heat?