injector cleaner that you know it works

[eolonano]

Hello guys,

I have a specific problem
(that I've described here
https://www.fiatforum.com/doblo/463645-doblo-ii-263-1-4t-jet-rough-idle-when-cold.html
for those who are interested)

My question really come down to this:
Do you know any kind of injector cleaner that you know for sure can do something? In other words: you have really experienced a roughly engine, that solves its problem after one or more treatments????

If it is not possible to indicate brands, please pm me.

 

[Greenwoodvehicleservices]

Hi sorry this may be a silly question is your van a 1.4 petrol/ cng?

 

[Eklipze3k]

If your injectors really need cleaning, take them out and clean them. Snake oil mixed in with your petrol will do the square root of nada.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I don't really believe in oil additives so don't use them preferring to buy a "good" oil in the first place. Fuel additives I would only use if I felt a particular advantage was to be gained. With that in mind I will admit I ran Wynn's Eco Diesel in my '99 1.9 tdi Cordoba because at that time I was worried about reports that low sulphur diesel was lacking in lubricity which might cause early and excessive wear in high pressure fuel pumps and injectors. The Wynn's claimed to contain a suitable lubricant. I stripped out the injectors at about 90,000 miles due to a slight misfire on one cylinder. The specialist who overhauled them said there was really no noticeable wear and one injector had a "tight" needle which was the cause of the miseries. He also commented that they were nice and clean. He lapped the needle and reset the blow off pressures, gave me new copper seating washers and a set of leak back pipes. The engine ran beautifully. No idea if the Eco Diesel did any good or not, certainly did no harm though! Now, with my direct injection Ibiza, I'm slightly worried about intake carbon fouling so I'm using Archoil AR6900-P MAX. This is the only product which I've found which claims to, in any way, tackle inlet fouling in direct injection engines. I will be surprised if it's the whole answer - I think developments yet to come in the oils will be a major factor - but I'm hoping it will have some effect and even if it doesn't it claims to contain lubricants which, I hope, will help the high pressure pump and injectors to survive perhaps the lubricant will also address any fuel wash effects on upper cylinder walls which can be a problem with direct injection. We'll see at around the 30,000 mile mark when I'm going to take the inlet manifold off (with integral water/air intercooler just to make it more interesting!) and have a look at the back of the valve heads and inlet ports.

To directly address your question - I believe "in tank" injector cleaners have some effect but it's a big ask to expect them to deal with heavily fouled components. Regular use before any issues manifest themselves probably help to keep things clean and healthy but, if you are concerned about this you may be better running a premium fuel (Shell and BP) are the market leaders in our area. If you have heavy fouling there's little to beat an ultrasonic clean. If you can remove the injectors yourself it will keep costs down as most of the labour is in the spannering. A couple of good sites for info on oil and various additives are "Powerenhancer" and "Opie oils" there are others but I find these are two of the best and they are both good at giving advice if you care to make contact. (I have no vested interest by the way).

 

[jimboy]

Take the injectors out as said previously & get them professionally cleaned, only way of getting said job done. Any potion or additive........snake oil.

 

[unclevanya]

What is the opinion of techies re: some of these advertsied fuel petrol and diesel additives which often claim to give better performance, m.p.g and clean the engines??

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What is the opinion of techies re: some of these advertsied fuel petrol and diesel additives which often claim to give better performance, m.p.g and clean the engines??

Probably better, as many on this forum have previously said, and I would agree, that you just buy something like Shell's V Power or BP's Ultimate (other brands are available I believe, they are just my local options). These fuels have been specifically blended, by the people who really, really, know about how to do it, to fulfill exactly the parameters you mention. Tipping a "roughly right" quantity of someone else's idea of what can be mixed with your choice of fuel with it's dose of additives already installed can only be a compromise?

 

[Eklipze3k]

Probably better, as many on this forum have previously said, and I would agree, that you just buy something like Shell's V Power or BP's Ultimate (other brands are available I believe, they are just my local options). These fuels have been specifically blended, by the people who really, really, know about how to do it, to fulfill exactly the parameters you mention. Tipping a "roughly right" quantity of someone else's idea of what can be mixed with your choice of fuel with it's dose of additives already installed can only be a compromise?

This, and regular servicing will do more than pretty much anything you could pour into your tank.

 

[maggers]

As above, any improvement will all be in the mind. Same goes for engine flushes - if you use them from new then maybe but if you use it on an older engine then ask yourself where does all the crud get washed to? Most likely place is the oil pump pickup strainer which then blocks up and screws your oil pressure. That said, the garage i work will continue to sell the stuff for £20 a can to gulible customers with pleasure!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As above, any improvement will all be in the mind. Same goes for engine flushes - if you use them from new then maybe but if you use it on an older engine then ask yourself where does all the crud get washed to? Most likely place is the oil pump pickup strainer which then blocks up and screws your oil pressure. That said, the garage i work will continue to sell the stuff for £20 a can to gulible customers with pleasure!

Oh yeah maggers. Flushing oil, especially in older engines, JUST DON'T DO IT!

 

[eolonano]

@ Greenwoodvehicleservices
Yes, It's the Fiat t-jet 1.4 petrol/cng
The problem I have it probably depends on using almost always the cng, leaving old petrol tank in the reservoir for to much.


all others
Thank you all; I've asked if anyone could say "I solved all my problem using that particular injector cleaner" because I'm aware of the tall tales those additive makers are telling around.

So, in my tank there is already a special blend of petrol (Eni Blu Power), but in the first days of testing, I've noticed no improvement.
In the last two days, it seems something is happening, but I'm waiting the next 2 or 3 days of frosty weather to do another test...

Just to know: how much can it cost having the injectors professionally cleaned?? (without removing, that I thinks I can do it myself

 

[jimboy]

You have to take the injectors out & send them off for cleaning.

Just to add, the process is done ultrasonically, they will give you a before & after readout of the strength of the fuel spray.

 

[s130]

I'll dip my toe in the water and hope there are no sharks out there to bite it off in error.

What I say is based on what my dad told me after over 50 years in the Petro Chem Industry working for Shell and Esso/Exxon/Paramins as a chemist formulating all the required additives/concoctions/processes that turned crude oil, synthetic oil etc into oils, lubricants, fuels for the automotive industry.

1) If you have no overriding technology issue or extreme performance/endurance issues (see later) then stick to Industry Standard and recognised oils, fuels, etc. appropriate for your car. No additional additives are required.

2) Shell / Esso / Texaco etc. do have their own premium market brands that will exceed and not just meet required standards. They also provide "branded" products to the supermarkets, independents, etc. There is nothing inferior or damaging in these supplied branded products. To do so would be company suicide. (e.g. say Shell/Esso/etc. is known to supply supermarket "x" and it is crap. We know supermarket "x" buys in so the oil company has delivered a silver bullet to their own heart.

3) He lived by these points and often used lesser know "brands" and supermarket fuels etc. with no qualms or issues.

4) Where these guys (chemists) ply their trade for the likes of Shell/Esso/Etc. is in developing additives to overcome issues with current formulations that are present when new automotive technology comes on line. For example a well know Auto Transmissions manufacturer (many years ago with a new auto box configuration) in conjunction with an oil company he worked for, together they worked overcome issues that were not addressed by current ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluids) specifications. I have no idea what these were (confidential) but given the ****/stress/etc that goes on in automatic transmissions this coluld have been a fluid frothing issue in the torque converter, clutch plate wear, clutch plate stiction, actuator performance, ?, ?,

5) Given 4) then you will find that vehicle manufacturers can/are very specific about only using a product that meet either an industry standard or both industry and their own "approval" rating.

6) Take a modern Fiat case for example. With their *new* UniAir/MultiAir technology they have now twice changed the oil specification / approval for the Twin and MultiAir Engines. MultiAir is NEW technology requiring the engine oil to do something it has NEVER been required to do in other engines. Namely the hydraulic pumping of small actuators at high pulse rates. So this new tech has posed a problem to be resolved and this is where the oil companies and their additives step in.

7) Given 6) the more recent latest spec oil has been upgraded to cope with additional hither unto parameters. What you will find is that oil and fuel technology is a step progression and further down the line all specific oils will meet the required parameters of the newer technology. If they don't they will go out of business.

8) Summary - If your car/manufacturer specifies XYX then stick to this. You may find that XYX is currently only available in a specific brand but that will change. Additional additives are not require unless something is missing!

Now for older/classic cars something is missing. Octane is down and Lead is out. SO I DO USE a lead substitute additive.

As for what other have said regarding snake oil, injector cleaners, etc. then it could be that if you used "Super Phantom" fuel over another standard approved fuel then 100K miles+ down the road your injectors may be marginally cleaner. But at what price premium compared to an injector clean?

I think you have to ask yourself some simple questions.

a) what does my vehicle manufacturer ask/specify
b) do I have a legitimate reason to deviate from a) e.g. leaded fuel no longer available, extreme duress not considered as normal operation/environment
c) how long are you going to keep you car? This may sway to only use Shell/Esso/Texaco/BP products over lesser brands.

Lastly even the big boys get it wrong, but not often. Many moons ago I seem to recall that a premium brand manufacturer had an issue with their new product (oil or was it fuel?) where the only vehicles that were affected were the likes of police cars and other vehicles that would be left idling for long periods of time.

 

[eolonano]

jimboy

You have to take the injectors out & send them off for cleaning.

Yes, yes, obviously I have to take them out.... sorry, but my English is not as good as I would like it to be...

When I said "without removing" I did mean "how much does it cost to have the injectors professionally cleaned without take into account the cost of the removal from the car, because that's a job that I can do myself".....
I hope I've explained myself


-----

Is it possible that injectors work differently when temperature change?
I'm asking because of the strange sequence I get:
1)I get rough idle engine when I start on petrol
2)After 3/4 second, it switches automatically on CNG, (different injectors, different ECU, etc...), and the engine runs perfectly smooth
3) if I immediately switch back to petrol, the engine runs roughly and it can stop.
4) if I manage to switch back to CNG, after some hesitations, the engine runs smooth again.
5) If I wait 15 seconds keeping the engine running on CNG, when I switch back to petrol, it runs perfectly smooth...

So, it can be the temperature? I think temperature sensors for petrol and CNG are the same... if they were different I would think of some faulty temp sensor.

There is something off with petrol/air mix, because I can smell bad combustion (not really a petrol smell), and, when I insist on roughly engine running on petrol, I can feel hesitations for a while when I run on CNG (like flooded cylinders).....
Do you have any idea/suggestion???
(keeping in mind that on a CNG engine, many problems on the petrol section are caused by the lack of use of the car when running on petrol...)





s130

So, you are suggesting that special petrols are virtually irrelevant in solving my problem (I've just give it a go, because I would like to try some wizardry before I start to spend real money on the car )

OFF - TOPIC - oil engine
I've read your post, and I'm interest because I would like to change the oil on my car real soon;
My specifications are Fiat 9.55535-S2, that can be found on:

CASTROL Magnatec, C3, 5W-40

CASTROL EDGE TITANIUM, 5W-40

ARAL HighTronic, 5W-40

RAVENOL VMO, 5W-40

KAMOKA CAT, C3, 5W-4

and, obviously, Selenia oil.

Fiat specifications 9.55535-S2 ar not really esaustive:
"Qualification for Diesel and gasoline engine, with exhaust treatment system, lubricants, with extended drain. OEM recommended product also meets: ACEA C3-04, MB 229.51 and API: SM/CF".

My cosideration:
T-jet doesn't have any special parts to lubricate, unlike for example multiair engines, they are pretty standard engines.

What do you think for example of Mannol oils?? I have seen one of them that has the same specifications of magnatec C3 (both oils are suitable for a lot of german cars), but Mannol doesn't have fiat specifications.

I suppose that they have to pay for it, so they prefer saving money because fiat is not a german maker.

 

[jimboy]

Regarding cost, that's up to your goodself to get in touch with companies that offer this service. I had injectors cleaned some years ago when repairing an engine, I think it cost me £40 or so. Not really sure.

Regarding oil, don't get all worked up about this, just make sure the oil is the correct spec for your engine, changing the oil & filter regularly is far more important. I change my oil on all my vehicles every six months regardless of mileage.

 

[s130]

Regarding the oil and Fiat 9.55535-S2, or any other specification then there are TWO key words.

Approved = has been tested by the Approval Agencies(ACEA, API, etc) or the Vehicle Manufacturer against their specific standard (eg. Fiat 9.55535-S2) and passes or exceeds technical requirements.

Meets = has been tested by the oil manufacturer or independent agency and passes or exceeds technical requirements including specific vehicle manufacturer specifications.

All major specs like ACEA and API will normally be done by industry authorised approval agencies. Vehicle Manufacturer Approval will be done by one or more specific agencies who are equipped to specifically and certify that the oil meets or passes the specific required tests.

Marketing by vehicle manufacturers has muddied the waters as they want to sell their own brand of oil at premium rates. The problem for us consumers is that we don't necessarily what/if the vehicle manufacturers specific approved oil really does solve a technology issue that currently other oils would not cope with. This is somewhat help by in some Fiat user manuals by the listed oil being "Selenia XYZ or any oil meeting ACEA....API...… etc). I've also seen the words "ONLY xyz".

The whole topic can be very confusing which is why you need to use the larger well known brands like Shell, Castrol, Texaco, and many others. These companies will have decent websites that allow you to put your vehicle info in and if they have an oil they will say so.

For the 500X (Castrol as an example below) many will tell you they do not have an oil.

Castrol say
Refer to dealer
Engine 55263624
Unfortunately we cannot determine a suitable product for your vehicle. This may be due to the fact we do not have a product that matches your specification or more information regarding your vehicle is needed. We recommend contacting your local Castrol dealer or distributor to get a specific recommendation. Click the link below to find your local distributor..

For your T-jet then any of the oils you list, plus many others will be perfectly OK because as you say there is nothing really special or demanding.

Regarding Mannol I've not heard of them before.

 

[eolonano]

Problem solved:

https://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk...etrol-cars-avoid-special-fuels.html?p=4465861

Thank you all for your help!!

 

[jimboy]

Glad you remedied your problem, as with most questions on here, especially starting issues & the like, we only have part of a story so it tends to be a bit of educated guess work. As for potions that claim to be the best thing for your engine....snake oil & again DO NOT GET ALL HUNG UP ABOUT WHAT ENGINE OIL. ANY oil that meets the requirements for your particular engine is fine. Not confusing at all, simple.

Just remember the oil market is a multi billion selling place & the companies all want a slice of the action. Snappy advertising with unfamiliar jargon used for their magic liquid are misleading at best.