Technical imobilser problem fiat ducato 1999 2.8d

[scullynet]

i have a knaus Fiat Ducato motorhome. its a 1999 2.8d. i have owned this for 2 years with no problems.
It came with the red key when i bought it, i had another made and chip programmed i have used both on and off for 2 years.
I was away on friday on holiday in hexham. parked in a car park went bak an hour later and the key light ( imobiliser ) would not go off.
tried the usual fuses, took the cover off to get to sensor moved closer to key no luck. had to call AA could not fix it, got towed to garge near my house.
went this morning and started with the newer key no problems. Took old key to key shop and he said it was being red no problem. Went home to try it and still still would not work. Tried my good key same problem now. disscoceted battery went back a couple of hours later it was working but after trying it about 10 times its now not working.
ill probaly get an auto electrician out after the weekend unless anyone has something else to try thanks and regards Mark.

 

[Greasytrucker]

That’s from the forum from a few years ago if it’s any help. Looks like you’re not alone!

 

[Communicator]

i have a knaus Fiat Ducato motorhome. its a 1999 2.8d. i have owned this for 2 years with no problems.
It came with the red key when i bought it, i had another made and chip programmed i have used both on and off for 2 years.
I was away on friday on holiday in hexham. parked in a car park went bak an hour later and the key light ( imobiliser ) would not go off.
tried the usual fuses, took the cover off to get to sensor moved closer to key no luck. had to call AA could not fix it, got towed to garge near my house.
went this morning and started with the newer key no problems. Took old key to key shop and he said it was being red no problem. Went home to try it and still still would not work. Tried my good key same problem now. disscoceted battery went back a couple of hours later it was working but after trying it about 10 times its now not working.
ill probaly get an auto electrician out after the weekend unless anyone has something else to try thanks and regards Mar

I posted the following on another thread, a few weeks ago. The difference is that the ultimate cure of removing the immobiliser on a mechanical injection engine is a physical task, whereas on a common rail engine the ECU needs reprogramming.

"I had a similar problem with my 2006 x244 2.8jtd. Failed once at a campsite reception, and then a few months later failed 2 out of 5 times when testing. You lose confidence in the vehicle. Working from other threads on here, and my own thoughts, I reasoned that the weak radio signals could be affected by contact oxidation at the code receiver, which is a separate module on the x244. Reseated connectors with liberal application of contact cleaner. No subsequent failures to recognise the key.

Any other keys/metal objects on the same key ring? Some members have reported extracting the chip from the key and sticking sticking it close to the aerial ring, which surrounds the ignition key. As a last resort it is possible to have the code requirement removed trom the ECU. Both of these approaches may have insurance implications."

 

[scullynet]

I posted the following on another thread, a few weeks ago. The difference is that the ultimate cure of removing the immobiliser on a mechanical injection engine is a physical task, whereas on a common rail engine the ECU needs reprogramming.

"I had a similar problem with my 2006 x244 2.8jtd. Failed once at a campsite reception, and then a few months later failed 2 out of 5 times when testing. You lose confidence in the vehicle. Working from other threads on here, and my own thoughts, I reasoned that the weak radio signals could be affected by contact oxidation at the code receiver, which is a separate module on the x244. Reseated connectors with liberal application of contact cleaner. No subsequent failures to recognise the key.

Any other keys/metal objects on the same key ring? Some members have reported extracting the chip from the key and sticking sticking it close to the aerial ring, which surrounds the ignition key. As a last resort it is possible to have the code requirement removed trom the ECU. Both of these approaches may have insurance implications."

could you explain the differnce between the mechanical or common rail engine ? excuse my ignorance and how i would check which i have regards Mark

 

[Communicator]

Hi Mark,
For a short answer your vehicle, a 1.9td has mechanical injection. On that system the injection pump has an outlet port for each cylinder, and a high prssure pipe connecting directly to each injector (one for each cylinder). The injector is basically a spring loaded valve with a fine outlet jet. The pump can be entirely mechanical. with the amount of fuel injected controlled a flexible cable similar to that used on pedal bicycle brakes. The injection pump is a complex component, accurately linked to the engine rotation, and delivers the fuel to each cylinder at the correct time. The amount of fuel injected is also varied according to the turbo boost pressure.
Early mechanical pumps had absolutely no electrical connections. Stopping the engine was by pulling a wire to move a lever, and hence close a valve on the pump.
Your injection pump will have an electrical "stop" solenoid, which is a misnomer, because it has to be energised for the engine to run. It will also have a mechanical injection advance control, which is automatically released by electrically heating a wax capsule.

With mechanical injection it is the supply to the stop solenoid, that is interrupted by the immobiliser. The immobiliser is mounted on the pump, and has a protective shield to prevent "hot wiring". As a last resort the security screws can ground through, the immobiliser removed, and a connection made between two wires so that the stop solenoid is supplied directly from the ignition switch.

The immobiliser receives a coded signal from the key code receiver, which in my vehicle is located under the steering column, so as to be near the aerial ring, It is the signals between the key and the code receiver that can be reduced by contact oxidation
However consider the age of the vehicle. Electronic components may have a design life of 20 years.

With the common rail system, which was introduced to the Ducato in 2000, the engine driven high pressure (hp) pump has a single outlet, and a variable outlet pressure. Fuel connection to the injectors is via a common rail or manifold, which runs alongside the cylinder head, The injectors are permanently connected to this manifold by short pipes, and opened electrically by the engine computer (ECU). Fuel injection pressure is much higher.
As a minimum there would be sensors for accelerator pedal, crankshaft position/speed, camshaft position, engine temperature, inlet manifold pressure and temperature, fuel rail pressure, and fuel temperature, all feeding into the ECU, which controls the timing, duration, and pressure of injection.

For a more comprehensive explanation of the common rail system, perhaps a web search?

For more info on the Bosch VE pump, which is probably what is fitted to your engine see here. If you scroll down to the bottom LHS corner there is a picture of the stop valve. There is an over whelming amount of information on that site!

 

[scullynet]

Hi Mark,
For a short answer your vehicle, a 1.9td has mechanical injection. On that system the injection pump has an outlet port for each cylinder, and a high prssure pipe connecting directly to each injector (one for each cylinder). The injector is basically a spring loaded valve with a fine outlet jet. The pump can be entirely mechanical. with the amount of fuel injected controlled a flexible cable similar to that used on pedal bicycle brakes. The injection pump is a complex component, accurately linked to the engine rotation, and delivers the fuel to each cylinder at the correct time. The amount of fuel injected is also varied according to the turbo boost pressure.
Early mechanical pumps had absolutely no electrical connections. Stopping the engine was by pulling a wire to move a lever, and hence close a valve on the pump.
Your injection pump will have an electrical "stop" solenoid, which is a misnomer, because it has to be energised for the engine to run. It will also have a mechanical injection advance control, which is automatically released by electrically heating a wax capsule.

With mechanical injection it is the supply to the stop solenoid, that is interrupted by the immobiliser. The immobiliser is mounted on the pump, and has a protective shield to prevent "hot wiring". As a last resort the security screws can ground through, the immobiliser removed, and a connection made between two wires so that the stop solenoid is supplied directly from the ignition switch.

The immobiliser receives a coded signal from the key code receiver, which in my vehicle is located under the steering column, so as to be near the aerial ring, It is the signals between the key and the code receiver that can be reduced by contact oxidation
However consider the age of the vehicle. Electronic components may have a design life of 20 years.

With the common rail system, which was introduced to the Ducato in 2000, the engine driven high pressure (hp) pump has a single outlet, and a variable outlet pressure. Fuel connection to the injectors is via a common rail or manifold, which runs alongside the cylinder head, The injectors are permanently connected to this manifold by short pipes, and opened electrically by the engine computer (ECU). Fuel injection pressure is much higher.
As a minimum there would be sensors for accelerator pedal, crankshaft position/speed, camshaft position, engine temperature, inlet manifold pressure and temperature, fuel rail pressure, and fuel temperature, all feeding into the ECU, which controls the timing, duration, and pressure of injection.

For a more comprehensive explanation of the common rail system, perhaps a web search?

For more info on the Bosch VE pump, which is probably what is fitted to your engine see here. If you scroll down to the bottom LHS corner there is a picture of the stop valve. There is an over whelming amount of information on that site!

thanks for that just for clarification mine is a 2.8 d does the same apply. to many issues with the immobiliser need to see if i can bypass it.thanks again. Mark

 

[Communicator]

thanks for that just for clarification mine is a 2.8 d does the same apply. to many issues with the immobiliser need to see if i can bypass it.thanks again. Mark

Yes for 1.9td you can read 2.8D. For some reason I got that wrong. Too many distractions here with grandchildren visiting. Mayhem for this old fogey.