Technical Idling problem.

[Albert Alfvag]

Hello guys.

I have a Fiat panda 1988 4x4 ie. It has done 92 000 kilometers.

I have a problem with the idling of the car, or rather, the lack of idling.
I bought the car in the condition that it sits, which is:

The car starts when I turn the key, but it imediately dies if I don't feather the throttle to keep the revs up. In other words, the idle is non-existant.

However, when I've been doing that for a while and slowly release the throttle, the car keeps on running but soooo slowly it's like a joke barely worth calling "running", more like vibrating just this side of the engine dying if you know what I mean.

Does anyone know what might be causing this?

I read a thread somewhere that it might be the idle control valve being gunked up, so I thought that I'd just remove it to see how it looked, but I can't find the damn thing!!!!

I looked on what the part looks like on websites that sell them, but I can't find a similarly looking thing around the throttle body assembly.

I looked in the haynes manual, and it says to disconnect the idle controll stepper motor (same thing as control valve right?) in one section.

If it is that thing (see my pic), how do I remove it? Do I have to take the whole trottle body assembly of? Because I can't get under the thing to reach the screws because of the damn engine block.

I just need a bit of help generaly as you can tell!!!

Cheers,
Albert

 

[P1NKY]

It might be the vacuum advance unit (small silver spaceship on the side of the distributor).

P1NKY

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Well mine is more like a rusty spaceship than a silver one. What does that thing actually do? I'm a complete noob on cars since this is my firs car, but I'm always keen to learn.

 

[kolza]

disconnect the hose going to the vacuum unit, connect spare one and blow or suck - if it isn't air tight it is broken, replacement part need to be sourced. (pm me if you can't fine one localy).

BTW is your car 1998 not 1988? base on IE and above pics i looks like `98.

 

[Dragon Man]

ahh now i had this issue on mine!

first thing is to make sure that that little black box/actuator actually works.

start the engine and hold the throttle open enough to prevent it from cutting out. now open the throttle a bit and stick your finger on the end of the thing.. theres a little button on the end make sure you press it.. the actuator should start moving.. if it does not then i guess that it has locked up and will need replacing.

if it is not locked up and works fine then follow this video i did...

"here is one i did earlier".. lmao



i hope this helps!

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Alright thanks.

I am positive it's an 88, that was the only year the 4x4 was available in sweden, from one dealership so theres no question about it.

John dragonman: I tried to puch the button as best as i could, but the engine wouldn't even start with the whole air-intake-air-filter thing off, so i put it back on and tried to reach the button as best as i could. It did move in and out, is that what you mean by movement?

I havn't followed the video but it looks exactly like it does on mine so i guess that could work, i just want to make sure the actuator works first.

And I'l also check the vacuum advance unit.

Any more tips would be appreciated!

Cheers,
Albert

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Now I've checked the vacuum advance unit as per kolza's suggestion, and if I understood correctly I should not be able to breath in or out of the hose attached to the vacuum advance unit. Is this with the car turned on or off?
Because I can breath quite freely in and out of the little spaceship with the car off.

Does this mean it's broken then?

/Albert

 

[kolza]

If you can blow/suck through the UFO it sounds like the membrane inside is broken.

Them guys should have one
http://www.reservdelar24.se/bil-maerke/reservdelar-fiat/panda-141a/4756.html

If not let me know via PM.

 

[andyholli]

Could it be not enough fuel getting through because the idle jet is blocked? (Brass slot head screw with a tiny hole in the middle sitting in the carb top. Unscrew both of them and hold up to the light to look through. The idle one has the smaller hole.)

 

[kolza]

Just to make sure - Have you got Lambda sensor at the front of the Exhaust down pipe?

Please have a look here
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/319064-classic-panda-literature-4.html

Post #59 , second pdf file from the top, page 41.

 

[firstcar-Y10]

Could it be not enough fuel getting through because the idle jet is blocked? (Brass slot head screw with a tiny hole in the middle sitting in the carb top. Unscrew both of them and hold up to the light to look through. The idle one has the smaller hole.)

Injection
If the vac advance is not working that's probably your issue, it'll be messing with both mix and ignition timing.

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Well my lambda sensor is sitting on the side of the exhaust manifold (sorry if it isn't called that, I don't know the name for some of these things in english)

You can see it in the picture I attache to the post.

And I have the injection so I don't have a carb, thanks for the suggestion though.

What difference does it make where the lambda is located? Just curious.

/Albert

 

[kolza]

no difference, but it is probably first '88 1.1 4x4 with fuel injection on this forum,

It looks like the batch imported to Sweden was same as Exported to USA and will have a catalitic converter as well.

Does the injector light on the dash give any sort of signals?

ps. vacuum advance unit sound faulty regardless to engine version.

Was it not running on idle since you own the car? was the car used much in the past?

 

[Dragon Man]

for now, plug the vacuum advance pipe so no air can be sucked into to. that will help a bit.

the engine may be fine.. the electronics may be ok but because of the vacuum leak and the spark advance not working correctly.. that could be the fault!

dont touch anything yet and just replace that vacuum advance servo or the UFO as we have come to call it.

you may be pleasantly surprised that it was the cause of the fault.

these "fuel only" engine management systems take only the slightest thing to make them run not well.

my car at the moment is having some serious issues with no revving up, dying while revving and just no power.

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Aha alright.

Well the emblems on the back says "Panda 4x4 i.e Cat" so I guess it has a catalytic converter.
However the engine is not the 1.1, it's the 999cc one.

And I don't have an injector light on my dash I think, what would that look like?

I have had the car for about 7 months, but I got my driving license just two weeks ago, and those two weeks have been spent mending rust on the bottom of the doors and some surface rust on some other places, and also one brake line was a gonner so I have fixed that to.

So I have never acctually driven the car, but I know that the idling problem and the brake line problem was the only flaws on the car when I bought it, and other than that the car is in very good condition. Basically no rust in the undercarrige or annywhere exept for the spots mentioned above.

The car has not been used very much, it has a total of 92200 kilometers on the clock, and I think it wasn't MOT-ed att all between 2001 and 2011.

And I only payed the equivalent of 600£ for it.

 

[Dragon Man]

nice!

you wont have an injector light.. it would be using the same ECU as the Uno FIRE ie which does not support the injector light or "engine management light" as it is know as now days.

the only time you know its going wrong is when it does start to go wrong..

you can convert this engine to use the same system as other fiats with the 1.1 single point injection engine.

all you need is the intake manifold, throttle body, engine wiring loom, ECU, crank position sensor, crank pulley, MAP sensor, oil pump cover and twin coil packs.

it is something i plan on doing to my 4x4 as i am running the same system as you at the moment.

doing this mod will remove the old distributor ignition system and make the engine fully ECU controlled.

it is not something i recommend doing if you are not into electronics. if you get a cinquecento ECU from 1993 it does not have an immobiliser built in. but any after 1993 do. they can be hard to bypass and need extra wiring plus other bits.

i like to mod things.. i cant help it.

 

[andyholli]

Sorry for the earlier misleading post suggesting carb issue - my excuse is that I was viewing it from my phone and had no photos...

Sorry.

 

[Albert Alfvag]

Hello again.

So, now I have changed the little vacuum spaceship but the problem is still there, no idling whatsoever, it just dies as soon as you relese the ignition key.

What's next?

Oh, and I just remembered something important. The guy I bought the car from said that the problem started after he had remeved the tank to change something. could it be something as siple as a little bit of dirt in the fuel-line?
or possibly something that's travelled through the fuel line and put itself somwhere bad?

What I thought about that is: Wouldn't the engine get to little fuel at all times if there was something stuck in the fuel-line, not just when idling (as oposed to me giving it a little throttle since I have never driven the car)?

Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, I just remembered it.

/Albert

 

[kolza]

Guys, would wrongly connected fuel lines give such a fault? If the tank was interfered.

Albert, start the engine with no fuel cap and see does it make any difference when on idle. Just in case if there is air lock.

 

[panda1408]

Guys, would wrongly connected fuel lines give such a fault? If the tank was interfered.

Albert, start the engine with no fuel cap and see does it make any difference when on idle. Just in case if there is air lock.

Those two things would stop it running all together.

I think you need to find someone with some diagnostic equipment that can take a look at the data from the ECU, this should give some indication of the problem, whether it is a vacuum leak somewhere or there is a problem with a component in the injection system like the throttle position sensor or idle control valve.