Technical Fuel Leakage while filling the Petrol-Tank

[Navin Talati]

Dear friends,
My car is Fiat Palio 1.2 nv Petrol - 2004 dec.Model.
For last TWO times, I have observed that the petrol is dripping (in substantial quantity) while filling the petrol at petrol pump. It gets poured on the floor. Some quantity is coming out and then onward there is no issue. I suspect that either Filler Hose is cracked/loosen or some other pipes-connection might be the culprit.
I seek your guidance for resolving this issue with relevant pictures, literature, and appropriate information. How should I proceed to assess the problem and what may the possible causes?
Thanking you all in anticipation.

 

[varesecrazy]

Dear friends,
My car is Fiat Palio 1.2 nv Petrol - 2004 dec.Model.
For last TWO times, I have observed that the petrol is dripping (in substantial quantity) while filling the petrol at petrol pump. It gets poured on the floor. Some quantity is coming out and then onward there is no issue. I suspect that either Filler Hose is cracked/loosen or some other pipes-connection might be the culprit.
I seek your guidance for resolving this issue with relevant pictures, literature, and appropriate information. How should I proceed to assess the problem and what may the possible causes?
Thanking you all in anticipation.

Hi,
does it leak under the car,
or comes back out near your hand..??

under the car is a loose hose / pipe.,

coming back towards you is a filler / vent issue.

Charlie

 

[Navin Talati]

It is under the car - i.e. petrol is coming out underneath the car and not from the filler port/mouth.

 

[portland_bill]

First thing to do is get under the car and see what you can see. The filler may be accessible from underneath, or maybe from behind a trim panel inside. As we don't have the Palio in the UK, the best way to find out is to just have a look.

Items 14 & 15 are hoses, which may have become loose, or broken.

 

[Navin Talati]

Dear friends,

I thank you all very much for the responses submitted to this issue. It has guided me a lot and initiated to focus on the actual culprit/cause. I am now updating the issue “Fuel Leakage while filling the Petrol-Tank” and put forward the efforts I made.
(1)
I removed the rear wheel and jacked up the car. From underneath the car, I observed very minutely for the places/locations from where the fuel (petrol/gasoline) may come out. Looked in detail about the symptoms for some fuel patches or dampness etc. Then also cleaned all pipes and lines and surfaces. Also removed a bottom cover on the fuel filler pipe/hose assembly and cleaned the surfaces. Nowhere fuel leakage symptoms were found. The concerned video is uploaded on Youtube () under title “Fiat Palio Filler Hose to Tank pipings” and also adding pics titled as 1-Checking of all the pipings

(2)
Then I opened the connection assembly of fuel pump which is located under the rear seat. Folded the rear seat and opened a lid having 6 screws. Around the upper fiber surface of the sending unit (fuel pump) some patches of liquid spreadings were found. Though it was not wet ! I am adding pics titled as 2-Initial Observation around Fuel pump

(3)
I also poured couple of liters of petrol to filler pipe/hose through fuel filling bunk with some expectation to find leakage somewhere. But nothing happened. The fuel went into the fuel tank.

(4)
In order to conclusively establish the location of the leakage, I am left with no option but to physically observe all the suspected leakage areas while filling the petrol in the tank to the full at a petrol pump / gas station.

Obviously the prime areas under observation were
(a) Underneath the rear part of the car
(b) Sending unit’s upper surface (on the fuel tank under the rear seat).

Naturally an assistant was essential to take sharp observation with a camera. Single person can not focus simultaneously to all around while filling petrol. Finally I did it.

(5)
Resultantly, as the tank became full, the petrol overflowing observed. The excess fuel was found coming out profusely from the fuel pump’s / sending unit’s connection’s round part.
The video is uploaded on youtube () under title “Fiat Palio Fuel Tank Leakage found”. I am adding the pics titled as 3-Fuel leakage location on sending unit.
(I cherished this moment despite fuel wastage ! ! ! …).

So ultimately the leaking location could be identified. Now, I need your advise and guidance for the following:
(a). Is this issue repairable? How?
(b). Should this culprit require the replacement of the whole fuel pump? If this is the essential solution, then it may dig a big hole in my pocket!

Please GUIDE and oblige.
Navin Talati / 21-08-2016

 

[portland_bill]

Good diagnosis.
The unit is not built to be dismantled and repaired, only replaced complete. It is likely that it is sealed with a simple O-ring, but finding one of the correct size and fuel resistant might be difficult, unless you know somewhere local to you.

!! Don't remove it with a full tank of fuel.

A complete unit looks like around £350 here. Aftermarket suppliers seem to offer similar units around £180, so hopefully you can source a replacement at an acceptable cost. Without the VIN I can't be certain I'm looking at the correct part for your vehicle, but it does not appear to be the same as Punto, which is a shame as that would make it more plentiful and cheaper.
These guys might be helpful, if they can supply to you. The parts I've found may not be correct for your car.
http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/fuel-pump/fiat-palio-178bx-1-2-60hp_v20569_g458.html

 

[Navin Talati]

Further UPDATE to the ISSUE

Friends,
I am updating the matter which I left long before with questions regarding Repairability OR Replacement of the Fuel pump. Fortunately it is ended up with repairability before it make a big hole in my pocket. Though the DIY saved a lot (about Rs.18000=00 or little more) but cost very little (say Rs.40=00 ! ). I am trying to put almost all the detail for everyone.

A.
After replacing rear wheel and a cover on the fuel filler pipe/hose, all piping-connections from filler mouth to fuel tank were checked and was found o.k.
B.
A leakage of the fuel (petrol) was found from the top of the fuel pump (i.e. also called “Sending Unit”) through a round circle below the main electrical connector. The whole procedure of fault finding is uploaded on YouTube ().
C.
Keep the lowest possible level of the fuel in the tank while starting the job so that you may have to siphon-out minimum petrol quantity.

REPAIRING PROCEDURE I DID

(NOTE: Take all the safety precautions before starting and doing work till its proper and perfect completion)

1. Under BONNET/In Engine Room : Disconnect battery -ve and + ve. Remove 30 AMP (green) fuse which feeds ECU and Fuel pump.

2. Come to rear reat in the car. Fold the rear seat and remove the carpet/floor mate and push it at a side.

3. Remove the top plate (six screws).

4. Connectors and fuel pump assembly will appear from top. A matel border cover fitted by 12 nuts will also appear.

5. Keep all the 5 doors open of your hatchback. Lower all the glasses of windows.

6. Clean the top surface of the fuel pump assy. and make marks for all connection as per convenience so that refitting become more convinient.

7. Disconnect TWO electrical connections and TWO piping connections carefully. Of two piping connections, one is little broader then the other.

8. Remark all the different points with appropriate colour marker after cleaning and scrapping surfaces.

9. Keep a 17 cm X 12 cm hard paper (to cover the sending unit assembly hole on the tank) with adhesive tap attached. This will be useful to cover the hole after removing the fuel pump and fuel to get protection from any foreign particles/dust etc. ingression.

10. Pump assembly is fitted on the tank-hole through 12 97 mm) nut-bolts. Open them using T-Shape spanner (it will be more convenient).

11. Remove 12 nuts (7 mm), remove metal fitting peripheral cover, and remove the whole pump assembly by pulling out it very very carefully. Some tilting alertness will be essential as a special care of FLOAT unit while taking the assembly out.

12. Remove the rubber fitting ring (flat and grooved oval type shape) from the tank body.

13. Siphon out the residual fuel from this hole and cover it with a hard paper cover kept ready. This will prevent any dust entry in the tank.

14. At this stage you may additionally do the job of cleaning the fuel tank.

15. The Fuel-pump (Sending Unit) assy. was taken out and dried after the petrol drain from it in normal course.

16. It is visible that the FOUR-PIN connector par is a separate attachment in this assembly. It is fixed in a ring type holder (which is a moulded portion of the top POM (Polyoxymethylene) plate under which the pump is hanging). This moulded ring type portion was found CRACKED from its flat-base surface in this case.

17. This crack is required to be repaired using a suitable resin type adhesive.

18. Selection of an adhesive is also a crucial issue. For that you have to consider the material and location of surfaces where it is to be applied.

19. Fuel Pump Material: It is Polyoxymethylene and in brief it is called POM. Molecular formula is (CH2O)n. Its other names are Acetal, Polyacetal, Polyformaldehyde, Delrin (by DuPont) etc. It is an Engineering thermoplastic, tough, low coefficient of friction, high heat resistant, low water absorption properties. Its Melting point is 175 deg.C. In automobile industry, it is used in making Fuel sender Units, Light/control stalk, Combination Switches including shifter for light, turning signals, power windows, door lock systems etc.

20. For bonding this type of material, usually Epoxides, Polyurethanes, and Cyanoacrylates type of Adhesives are used. I studied literature for many such adhesives, their properties, availability, and ease of its applications. In this case, adhesive must be gasoline resistant or gasoline proof. Finally I selected ARALDITE (Standard). It is petrol resistant, easily available and requires 24 hours for curing. The crack in the fuel pump was covered by applying TWO coats of Araldite(Std), each at 24 hours interval.

21. Clean the Sending Unit assembly and Level Indicator assembly using a soft brush.

22. Clean the surface on the tank where the pump is to be mounted.

23. Place the rubber gasket after applying a thin layer of proper gasket maker (here I used ThreeBond 1140) on it.

24. Apply the gasket maker paste on upper side of the rubber gasket.

25. Remove the protection of hard paper cover from the tank-hole and VERY CAREFULLY (taking special care for the Float and its arm) re-place the sending unit assembly in the tank-hole.

26. Properly and uniformly refit the metal cover and tight the 12 nuts on it.

27.Clean both connectors and both pipes and fit them at their appropriate place.

28.Re-place the Fuse and Re-connect the battery ( + ve First and then – ve).

29. ON and START the car.

30. Observed the fuel pump assembly – all is o.k. - Then refit the lid on it and fixed it with its SIX screws , spread the carpet and lowered the rear-seat on it.

I have tried my best to illustrate the above operations through the following pictures. However, you are requested to draw my attention to any missing information. This will be highly appreciated.
Hope this will be useful to all.

Thanks a lot for sparing your valuable time to read.

Navin Talati / 13-02-2017

 

[ArthurM]

Hi. Well how about that for a comprehensive issue solver. If only others would at least get back to the forum with solutions. Majority don't bother,as I have said before people want good free advice but the forum gets no return.

 

[portland_bill]

Absolutely brilliant, well done and thank you.

A comprehensive guide to the repair, and good reasoning for the use of Araldite. A great help to anyone ever finding a similar problem.

 

[Navin Talati]

Friends,

You would have read detail and viewed pictures about the Palio 1.2 nv Petrol car’s FUEL PUMP (Sending Unit).

This background may get more clear through the uploaded video on YouTube under title “ Fiat Palio 1 2 nv FUEL PUMP Cracked & Repaired “having link as under:



This will give more visible detail about the Fuel Pump of Fiat Palio 1.2 petrol.

Navin Talati

 

[octane_fx]

@ navin ,i owned a palio 1.2 petrol 2002 model 5 years back and had similar issue , petrol leak in cabin due to busted pipe the black pipe from the fuel pump to the out line , i was able to dismantle and remove the fuel pump , the original fuel pump is of Bosch make and is expensive Rs 5,000 when i last got it checked at a Bosch service center , i bought a high pressure pump that is easily locally available for rs 950 these days and replaced it ,i replaced the black pipe also with a high pressure petrol resistant pipe that i picked up from ranijung in Hyderabad (INDIA) , all in all it was fun , i have a good idea about how to replace the fuel pump if it ever stops working , i was not able to do a video about it but in future if i ever have to work on one i will make a video , thank you for your efforts ,

i currently own a 2002 Palio 1.6 GTX sports , i love it and am planning to keep it for good ,i will be replacing most parts like ,sensors , belts and much more , please note that you can buy parts from ALIEXPRESS and ALI BABA .com , i choose ALI EXPRESS since they offer 1 piece . ALIEXPRESS parts will take time to arrive and trust me they are way cheaper than what is being asked on few premium sites ,

i have seen few site come up this year in INDIA offering the parts at very decent prices ,

keep posting !!

 

[Navin Talati]

@ navin ,i owned a palio 1.2 petrol 2002 model 5 years back and had similar issue , petrol leak in cabin due to busted pipe the black pipe from the fuel pump to the out line , i was able to dismantle and remove the fuel pump , the original fuel pump is of Bosch make and is expensive Rs 5,000 when i last got it checked at a Bosch service center , i bought a high pressure pump that is easily locally available for rs 950 these days and replaced it ,i replaced the black pipe also with a high pressure petrol resistant pipe that i picked up from ranijung in Hyderabad (INDIA) , all in all it was fun , i have a good idea about how to replace the fuel pump if it ever stops working , i was not able to do a video about it but in future if i ever have to work on one i will make a video , thank you for your efforts ,

i currently own a 2002 Palio 1.6 GTX sports , i love it and am planning to keep it for good ,i will be replacing most parts like ,sensors , belts and much more , please note that you can buy parts from ALIEXPRESS and ALI BABA .com , i choose ALI EXPRESS since they offer 1 piece . ALIEXPRESS parts will take time to arrive and trust me they are way cheaper than what is being asked on few premium sites ,

i have seen few site come up this year in INDIA offering the parts at very decent prices ,

keep posting !!

Sir,
I am very much pleased to learn your ability.
Kindly throw some light on my question under the thread:
https://www.fiatforum.com/palio/447897-how-detach-gear-cables-linkages.html
and OBLIGE.
Thanks in anticipation.
Navin Talati / 27-02-2017