Technical Fiat panda 2013 Twin air. Stalling with cold start

[Orimian]

Hello all,

I have a Fiat Panda 2013 model with a twin air motor (312/PXP1A). For around a year now I have been having issues with the engine sometimes stalling when doing a cold start. The motor will fire up and I will be able to drive for around a minute or two, but when engaging the clutch at an intersection it will stall and no longer turn on. I mainly use this car for work and this stalling happens at the exact same intersection every time it does happen.

Around a year ago the problem start. My mechanic replaced the twin-air module which seemed to have resolved the issue for a bit, but was never happy with how the motor ran when it wasn't up to temperature.

Around 6 months ago when the issue surfaced again. A full oil change was done which again seemed to have resolved the issue for a while.

2 months ago I had to top off the oil again, as it was already low again.

Today it stalled again with no signs of life afterwards, checked the oil level and seemed okay.


The motor is now using 0w15 oil, which is different from what was used before (0w30).
Once the engine is up to temperature it runs without any problems.

I have looked at some other posts and am not 100% sure if this could be my issue as well.

500 twinair stalls when engine not up to temperature | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum. Just wished it was under slightly different circumstances that im writing my first thread. I have a 500 twinaitr - ace car, I love it.. however, after having it 6 months of owning it second hand, 46000 miles it started to develop an issue. when the car is...

www.fiatforum.com

900cc Twinair rough start from cold | FIAT 500 (2007+)

We have a 2013 Fiat 500 0.9 Twinair, 20k miles that runs rough from cold. When plugged in the only code we are given is misfire on cylinder 2, have changed plugs and coil packs, but still runs rich for a minute or so from a cold start. Have flushed engine and changed the oil 5w 40 as I am told...

www.fiatforum.com

They are mentioning the lambda sensor and coil pack. As far as I know these have never been checked/replaced.
I am starting to lose trust in my mechanic so might start to have a look myself. Maybe one of you can recommend a scanner that I could use to read out the car.


Any help is welcome and thanks in advance!

 

[The Panda Nut]

I am suprised you are not running the oil spec for this engine. The valve operation requires a very very fine tolerance and I wouldnt do this. I have had poor running after service but not to this extent. I would check you have the iridium type of plugs, use the correct oil and then try coils if you are still having issues. Then look at injectors and oil pick up to ensure you have really consistent oil pressure. It is also possible if the milage is getting up that a new timing chain could be in order. I had a Nissan Micra and the timing chain slop used to cause that to loose power and also to cut out. Mostly it would start up and go fine after its conking out moment. New chain and tensioners cured it totally. I hope this helps your thinking and wish you well in sorting it.

 

[Orimian]

Just got word back from my mechanic. It seems the oil level was too low after only having driven 3000km since the last oil fill. It seems the motor is now burning oil like crazy. Looks like I am going to have to find a solution for that problem now.

 

[Panda IIs]

Just got word back from my mechanic. It seems the oil level was too low after only having driven 3000km since the last oil fill. It seems the motor is now burning oil like crazy. Looks like I am going to have to find a solution for that problem now.

First be sure the level was measured correctly in the first place - the dipstick is oil "coloured" plastic if it has aged so therefore quite difficult to read accurately in the first place!

 

[The Panda Nut]

First be sure the level was measured correctly in the first place - the dipstick is oil "coloured" plastic if it has aged so therefore quite difficult to read accurately in the first place!

Too right (Panda lls). I have made my own dip stick and it gives consistent readings the cars dipstick CANNOT be relied on at all. No two readings the same and it seems to be oilphobic. You dip it and it comes out clean half the time. My steel one gives a pretty good consistent level. There is a post with photos on here but if anyone wants the exact dimensions I used I would be happy to provide. The variation in starting I have noticed after a service is substantial. I suspect they are using an oil brand I wouldnt choose. I provided the Selenia oil this time and its back doing what you would expect rather than needing 2.5 times the amount of turning to start, particulalry noticable with the stop start which needs to work 100% to not be a nuisance. The stalling make sme suspicious its fuelling or a coil issue though. In this cae I would definitely whip the sump off and inspect and, probably even change the oil pick up.

 

[Panda IIs]

Too right (Panda lls). I have made my own dip stick and it gives consistent readings the cars dipstick CANNOT be relied on at all. No two readings the same and it seems to be oilphobic. You dip it and it comes out clean half the time. My steel one gives a pretty good consistent level. There is a post with photos on here but if anyone wants the exact dimensions I used I would be happy to provide. The variation in starting I have noticed after a service is substantial. I suspect they are using an oil brand I wouldnt choose. I provided the Selenia oil this time and its back doing what you would expect rather than needing 2.5 times the amount of turning to start, particulalry noticable with the stop start which needs to work 100% to not be a nuisance. The stalling make sme suspicious its fuelling or a coil issue though. In this cae I would definitely whip the sump off and inspect and, probably even change the oil pick up.

A couple of additional points (one a question);

• When is the dipstick reading correctly? Since it is attached to the oil fill cap, when the cap is screwed shut (maybe that's one of the reasons it has the ratcheting cap?) or do you unscrew and dip again?? I have always assumed the former and it may say in the manual which I clearly haven't read (properly)!
• There is a gauze filter in the top of the UniAir module which I believe acts as an additional filter. There is not much coverage of this item (and I don't believe it figures in the normal service schedule, but some on here do remove and clean it. If yours has had some poor oil change history maybe this is a contributing factor here? There is more coverage on the 'net for a similar filter on the multiair 4 cylinder engine but location etc is of course different for that engine.

 

[Orimian]

I do struggle trying to read the oil level with the standard stick, especially because of the thinner 0w15 oil. I checked the other day and thought it was fine, apparently not...

 

[The Panda Nut]

A couple of additional points (one a question);

• When is the dipstick reading correctly? Since it is attached to the oil fill cap, when the cap is screwed shut (maybe that's one of the reasons it has the ratcheting cap?) or do you unscrew and dip again?? I have always assumed the former and it may say in the manual which I clearly haven't read (properly)!
• There is a gauze filter in the top of the UniAir module which I believe acts as an additional filter. There is not much coverage of this item (and I don't believe it figures in the normal service schedule, but some on here do remove and clean it. If yours has had some poor oil change history maybe this is a contributing factor here? There is more coverage on the 'net for a similar filter on the multiair 4 cylinder engine but location etc is of course different for that engine.

You must screw the dip stick in before reading. Not that this makes the sligtest difference. As its plastic stains to oil colour in under 6000 miles from new the whole thing is useless in every way.

The gauze filter in the Uniair module could be an issue, as could the spring loaded valve described on here very recently. I did have a gander to see of I could see this valve a week or two back, but its buried under a few other things that would need disconnection and removal to access it. Apart from the risk of breaking these parts, the car has had 5 changes in its 20k it isnt going to need touching I hope. I decided to leave well alone for the moment until maybe 50K at least. If cleaning this thing, EXTREME care would be needed to ensure no dust dirt or grit enter the system, so compressed air blow out and vauuming before removal then great care handling and replacing. I have not heard of anyone seeing any issues with this thing, its clearly not meant to have to catch anything and is a last resort item to contain and collect any debris. As none is anticipated with a normally serviced engine it would just contain anything indefinitely. Probably only meant to be touched if the Uniair module is removed, hence not a service item. I think for most people the risk of contamination if touching this filter far outweighs any potential advantage to interfering with it. Asking the dealers at the last service met with a totally blank look!

 

[Panda IIs]

You must screw the dip stick in before reading. Not that this makes the sligtest difference. As its plastic stains to oil colour in under 6000 miles from new the whole thing is useless in every way.

The gauze filter in the Uniair module could be an issue, as could the spring loaded valve described on here very recently. I did have a gander to see of I could see this valve a week or two back, but its buried under a few other things that would need disconnection and removal to access it. Apart from the risk of breaking these parts, the car has had 5 changes in its 20k it isnt going to need touching I hope. I decided to leave well alone for the moment until maybe 50K at least. If cleaning this thing, EXTREME care would be needed to ensure no dust dirt or grit enter the system, so compressed air blow out and vauuming before removal then great care handling and replacing. I have not heard of anyone seeing any issues with this thing, its clearly not meant to have to catch anything and is a last resort item to contain and collect any debris. As none is anticipated with a normally serviced engine it would just contain anything indefinitely. Probably only meant to be touched if the Uniair module is removed, hence not a service item. I think for most people the risk of contamination if touching this filter far outweighs any potential advantage to interfering with it. Asking the dealers at the last service met with a totally blank look!

Yeah, personally I wouldn't go near it, but just thought I'd mention it (especially if the history is unknown).

 

[The Panda Nut]

I do struggle trying to read the oil level with the standard stick, especially because of the thinner 0w15 oil. I checked the other day and thought it was fine, apparently not...

Dont believe it! If they / you looked at the cars dip stick ... I have seen a situation where my car appeared to have no oil in it. Using my own dip stick showed it was full. I have given thought to replacing the tip of the stick with steel, but risk of that failing means I am not going to do it. Its just a thing we have to manage. Others have suggested using tissue to show the level on the dip stick.

 

[JayAre]

The gauze filter in the Uniair module could be an issue, as could the spring loaded valve described on here very recently. I did have a gander to see of I could see this valve a week or two back, but its buried under a few other things that would need disconnection and removal to access it. Apart from the risk of breaking these parts, the car has had 5 changes in its 20k it isnt going to need touching I hope. I decided to leave well alone for the moment until maybe 50K at least. If cleaning this thing, EXTREME care would be needed to ensure no dust dirt or grit enter the system, so compressed air blow out and vauuming before removal then great care handling and replacing. I have not heard of anyone seeing any issues with this thing, its clearly not meant to have to catch anything and is a last resort item to contain and collect any debris. As none is anticipated with a normally serviced engine it would just contain anything indefinitely. Probably only meant to be touched if the Uniair module is removed, hence not a service item. I think for most people the risk of contamination if touching this filter far outweighs any potential advantage to interfering with it. Asking the dealers at the last service met with a totally blank look!

is this sometimes referred to as the “strainer filter”? If so there was a thread on this in the Fiat forum:
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/twinair-valve-actuator-oil-filter.454649/

Also the AlfaOwner forum:

https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/strainer-filter.1206904/

 

[The Panda Nut]

is this sometimes referred to as the “strainer filter”? If so there was a thread on this in the Fiat forum:
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/twinair-valve-actuator-oil-filter.454649/

Also the AlfaOwner forum:

https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/strainer-filter.1206904/

Yes I believe thats the thing. Several people have removed it and inspected / cleaned it. Oersonally I have decided to leve it alone as it would really need perfect cleanness. If so much as a spec of dirt goes into the Uniair while this is removed it would be a disaster. If cleaning make certain that scrupulous cleanliness is observed before dismantling and refitting!! I think issues such as stalling are better addressed by checking / canging oil viscocoity / temp sensors(s) first as these are more likely to be causing any non fatal issues with the UA unit. Im fascinated by the Uniair system and now interested to find out what the pressure relief valave it appears to have is exactly responsible for. Im doing low milage so my oil is being changed around 5K miles and Im inclimned to think with this high tecg racing turbo twin that this interval may be quite a sensible one.