Technical Fiat 500 Twinair - Turn start stop off permanently!

[iangray100]

Guys,

For all you “I hate start stop” and partially on the 500 Dualogic (automatic) gearbox users as it Start Stops when at junctions or traffic etc and is quite dangerous sometimes when you need to pull out after stopping for a few seconds at a junction – with a manual gearbox you can select when the Start Stop works by selecting neutral:

Fiat have recently released a new Start Stop logic function for the Start Stop ECU on the Fiat 500 that enables you to 100% turn off the Start Stop, and its off selection is fully remembered when the ignition is turned off and back on .

I have had this new firmware (F/W) loaded to my March 2012 Fiat 500C Twinair (TA) that didn’t have this new Start Stop logic initially, but had the full automatic - I can’t turn off all the time Start Stop, as it was pre the Vin numbers below .
Contra to the dealer telling me in conversation build up here due to my gearbox escalation, this new logic doesn’t works on the older start stop Fiat 500’s . I have the car to prove it and it works as the bulletin below and they even road tested it to prove it .

(Note: The reason for the new F/W on my car was due to a random gearbox light that keeps coming on and myself reading all the Fiat 500 technical bulletins on this Fiat site : https://www.technicalinformation.fiat.com/tech-info-web/web/index.do over 100 bulletins for the 500!!

I did this to help guide the garage to known issues with CANbus ECU calibrations and gearbox F/W updates, as all they initially wanted to do is again just replace the “paddle shift levers” again. They had replaced this unit 1000miles ago and the issues reoccurred again . They admitted, as I also escalated this to Fiat UK that the paddle shift wasn’t the issue and the new F/W’s needed loading onto the car, they also updated the body ECU code .. amazing I’m tell the garage how to fix my car as all they want to do was replace parts ! Not good really in todays computerized electronic car world .

Yes it will cost you money to gain access to this site but if you what to guide you dealer amazingly to fix Firmware issues then this will surprise them with your knowledge.

[FONT=&quot]Hope this helps someone….[/FONT]

++++++++++++++++++

Quote from the Fiat Start Stop technical bulletin release notes “Bulletin ref is: 5505 1 861 RA”

[FONT=&quot]START&STOP SYSTEM – NEW OPERATING LOGICS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The models and the relevant chassis numbers listed here below are those with the new Start&Stop system activation/deactivation logics implemented, according to the relevant table.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Panda (319) - from chassis no. 3079672[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]500 (150) - from chassis no. 863824[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Punto 2012 (199) - from chassis no. 1889472[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]500L (330) - From production start date[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Fiorino/Qubo (225/300) - from chassis no. 8290792[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Doblò (152/263) – introduction expected within December 2012[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Function[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Memorisation of the Start&Stop system status when the engine is switched off[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pre-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]After each engine starting, the Start&Stop system is always activated even if it had been deactivated before switching the engine off.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]After each engine starting, the Start&Stop system will keep the same status (activated or deactivated) it had before the last switching off.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Function[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Elimination of the Start&Stop system deactivation when the heated rear window is on[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pre-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the Start&Stop system deactivates when the heated rear window is activated.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the Start&Stop system will be activated even if the heated rear window is switched on.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Function[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Elimination of the Start&Stop system deactivation when the window wiper is at max. speed[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pre-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the Start&Stop system deactivates when the windscreen wiper max. speed is selected.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the Start&Stop system will be activated even at the max. windscreen wiper speed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Function[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Decrease of the operation time of the Start&Stop button deactivation[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pre-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]to deactivate the Start&Stop system the relevant button must be pressed for at least 300 ms.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After-modification[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]to deactivate the Start&Stop system just press the relevant button for at least 50 ms.[/FONT]

 

[Ulpian]

Thank you, a very helpful post.

I have a Doblo and when I remember I switch off the S&S, but I forget sometimes as I do many shortish runs, sometimes in a hurry. It's a pest, and I prefer to keep the battery charging.

My (2010) car is doubtless too old to benefit from the mods, but it's good Fiat has realised that owners like control over their cars' functions.

 

[UFI]

It's a pest, and I prefer to keep the battery charging.

The alternator doesn't charge the battery if it's full, and S/S won't work unless it is very close to full. My TA's alternator spends a lot of time not charging. Doblos could of course be different.

For a dealer free S/S disable, disconnect the neg lead and IBS on a non full battery, reconnect (without the proper procedure being followed) and the S/S won't work anymore.

Fitting a lithium battery also disables S/S

 

[RobW]

thanks for sharing, how much does it cost?

BUT
this sucks, you should not have to 'become an italian car specialist' to get the right info of the car :bang:

 

[Ulpian]

The alternator doesn't charge the battery if it's full, and S/S won't work unless it is very close to full. My TA's alternator spends a lot of time not charging. Doblos could of course be different.

I expect they are similar in fact, but I do notice slight power fluctuations in the new car, by which I mean I detect interior lights dimming when stuff kicks in/out in a way that was undetectable before. I get the real sense that charge is being monitored all the time - which it is of course.

Now it's warm the S&S is working again all the time, but it can go three weeks without it functioning when it's cold. And remember, I use the car at night a lot, so lights, sat-nav and often the wipers are always connected. But I recently did a long run at speed

It's working faultlessly in fact, which is good.

 

[jrkitching]

Now it's warm

In this weather, owners of cars without climate might want to disable S/S to keep the air conditioning compressor working when stationary. IIRC climate models automatically inhibit S/S activation if they need the compressor to cool the cabin air.

 

[Ulpian]

Exactly. When the engine kicks in it has the load of the starter and a moment later the compressor to cope with. It notices. But once the car is cool the compressor can be off for a long time, since the manual A/C seems to get the huge volume of the Dobby cold very quickly.

The trick is remembering to switch it off! One more clever device that means I have to think.... At least I haven't got auto lights and wipers, they would send me apoplectic.

 

[iangray100]

So the cost of the F/W update if no issues is just Fiat dealer time, but in my case it cost me nothing (to the dealer) , as Fiat had a gearbox escalation to fix so this was part of the diagnose once I directed they to 3 new F/W levels to load. Gearbox , Body ECU and Start Stop .

But if you mention to the dealer these symptoms (that are documented here ) why wouldn't they load the code as part of the warranty work - you might have to help them get there though ;-)

Issue 1) [FONT=&quot]The Start&Stop system deactivates when the heated rear window is activated. ..fix in the code
Issue 2 ) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Start&Stop system deactivates when the windscreen wiper max. speed is selected...fixed in this code [/FONT]

For the comments with Climate control & Start Stop , this works fine when the A/C on . When the compressor is restart the engine is an well as per design as the S/S has a default value of engine off has the engine been off for 3min, it will then automaticaly restart the engine irrespective of the A/C or anything else.

++++++++++++++++++

FYI: Here s a note in the update of why S/S wont work all the time :

[FONT=&quot]FAILED ENGINE STOPPING[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The engine does not stop in special conditions, such as:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]engine still cold;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]especially cold outside temperature;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]battery not sufficiently charged; (NB: I hear it needs be over 70% charged )[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]particulate filter regeneration (DPF) in progress (diesel engines only);[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]driver's door not shut;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]driver's seat belt not fastened;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]reverse gear engaged (for example, for parking manoeuvres);[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]automatic climate control, if a suitable thermal comfort level has not yet been reached or MAX-DEF function activation;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]during the first period of use, to initialise the S/S system as this take several Hrs to stablise[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[UFI]

thanks for sharing, how much does it cost?

My DIY LIFE battery cost around $300 all in and saved 14kg off the front end (there's another kilo to save after the warranty expires). Still working on reverse engineering the alternator charge profile and S/S initialisation.

 

[UFI]

[FONT=&quot]battery not sufficiently charged; (NB: I hear it needs be over 70% charged )[/FONT]

I don't have an actual figure, but I'd say it's more like 90+% from my experience. I have to put about 3amps (62Ah battery) in (which brings the battery to peak voltage), and then S/S works immediately the engine is up to temp. Otherwise it takes about 30km of driving for S/S to work for the first time. Car is usually used once a week.

 

[ItalianWines]

I don't have an actual figure, but I'd say it's more like 90+% from my experience. I have to put about 3amps (62Ah battery) in (which brings the battery to peak voltage), and then S/S works immediately the engine is up to temp. Otherwise it takes about 30km of driving for S/S to work for the first time. Car is usually used once a week.

Just to change to the opposite of this thread.... I have quick question...
We have and want S/S to work properly on the Mrs 500.. It doesnt.. Please can someone tell me how many volts the battery should show when -
You pop the bonnet... Lock the car.. 10 mins after the battery show be at how many volts.. ?
I think I read somewhere here on the forum, 12.82 ??
Thanks guys

 

[UFI]

My full charged 12 month old battery read 12.80 after 8 hours rest (no load). I'd be surprised if any battery reads that high at rest after any use. The 'inteligent' alternator charge profile is dependant on initialisation voltage, I've managed to get my altenator to give me a 14.7 resting voltage!

 

[CptBill]

i had the fw loaded too about 6 months ago on my wife's TA dualogic. So at last, i can turn it off permanently.

Does anyone know when was the last fw update for dualogic (TA) released and what are the changes?

 

[iangray100]

Here you go , the Dualogic latest code fix these main issues :

Technical bulletin : 10562331 RA

[FONT=&quot]0.9 TwinAir 85 HP with electrohydraulic controlled gearbox (Dualogic)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For this specific version, in addition to a possible engine failed starting, the Customer may claim one or more of the following faults:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]When starting from stationary, the engine tends to switch off in setting-off step[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]When downshifting from second to first gear engine tends to switch off[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]No Hill Holder function uphill after automatic engine restarting[/FONT]

..........blar blar blar in the bulletin.....




[FONT=&quot]DUALOGIC GEARBOX CONTROL UNIT CODES[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The following table shows the hardware (HW) and software (SW) codes of the "SELESPEED CFC328 2 Marelli Automatic Transmission" control unit, before and after reprogramming.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The following information is available on Examiner WEB and wiTEXEDi as well.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Before programming, the control unit must have the following data[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HW number[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]CFC 328F.17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HW version[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]00[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SW number[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]FJD00TAT[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SW version[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]0000[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]After programming, the control unit must have the following data[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HW number[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]CFC 328F.17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HW version[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]00[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SW number[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]FJD00TBA[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SW version[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]0000[/FONT]



Enjoy .........................................................
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[bgunn]

In this weather, owners of cars without climate might want to disable S/S to keep the air conditioning compressor working when stationary. IIRC climate models automatically inhibit S/S activation if they need the compressor to cool the cabin air.

With climate: If the temp set point differs from the actual cabin temp by more than 3 degrees, the s&s is inhibited. In this current hot weather, my s&s will only stop the engine after a good long period where the a/c gets the cabin cool enough.

 

[deeyup]

Did you happen to notice anything in those bulletins about car failing to restart after being stopped?

 

[bgunn]

Did you happen to notice anything in those bulletins about car failing to restart after being stopped?

No, there's nothing about that..

 

[david finkels]

Hi we are lucky enough to have two Fiat 500 Twinair .
One the start stop works as would be expected.

The other car the SS stops and then 2 seconds later it starts or very rarely and randomly it stays stopped at a set of lights. Fiat cant find anything wrong. Has anyone got any suggestions.

Thanks
David

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Hi we are lucky enough to have two Fiat 500 Twinair .
One the start stop works as would be expected.

The other car the SS stops and then 2 seconds later it starts or very rarely and randomly it stays stopped at a set of lights. Fiat cant find anything wrong. Has anyone got any suggestions.

Thanks
David

Replace the battery. If the battery has lost its edge, perhaps because the car was held in storage for a long period without charging, it will discharge at an accelerated rate when S/S kicks in - dropping from about 13V to 12V in a matter of seconds. When the system detects that it's dropped to 12V the S/S will restart the car. In normal operation, when S/S kicks in you'll see the 14.2V running voltage drop to about 13V then slowly decline, but it should not reach 12V before you move off or three minutes have passed, even with the headlights on.

If you want to confirm this, purchase a cigarette-lighter-type voltmeter (such as; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LED-Car-Auto-Battery-Electric-Cigarette-Lighter-Voltmeter-Voltage-Meter-Tester-/350590063775) and monitor it yourself. These are cheap, accurate and easy to use.

The battery should be replaced with a correct Stop/Start battery, not just any type, however good quality. If the car is under warranty pester FIAT for the replacement.

I went through this when I bought my car new. It had been sitting in storage for about 10 months before I purchased it and the S/S behaved exactly as you describe. FIAT at first denied any problem but, armed with information from this Forum and the evidence from my voltmeter I finally conviced them to replace the battery under warranty - it has functioned flawlessly ever since.

 

[Mercky]

Yep, it's your battery for sure.