Fence posts - again!

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Over the last year or so I've done a number of posts about fencing and especially dealing with rotted off posts. As we all seem on here to be very practical people who would be likely to carry out this sort of repair ourselves, I thought you might like a wee update on how my repairs have weathered the recent severe storms, especially the "experiment" I've been making with the metal repair stakes.

The winds were fierce here but not as spectacular as some of the stuff I've seen on the TV. It shredded the fence between the flats and the garages opposite us and the man over the back from us at the end of the next street over lost his entire fence. He is not a DIY type and I know he got some workies to erect his. My guess would be that they didn't dig the holes deep enough! Also they've been doing broadband updating around here and they dug a deep hole in the pavement two houses down the street and installed a large access inspection pit which they left surrounded by plastic interlinked barriers (usual Telecom type barriers) and two quite heavy injection molded "roadworks ahead" type triangular signs on the pavement outside our house. The wind chased the signs down to the end of the road and flattened about half of the barriers, so a "strong" breeze!

So I was really very surprised to find all my fence posts not only still standing but, apart from one (more on that in a minute) standing absolutely vertical! As you can see in this pic

The post in the middle of the hedging has "Post Buddy" stakes https://postbuddysystem.co.uk/ as does the one nearest the camera


There is a third on the other side of the garden on which I used a couple of galvanized builder's straps - just to see if they would work as well. https://www.toolstation.com/heavy-d...KBLw4srQ0n73q-dHQ3gaAl-5EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

They've been just as effective as the Post Buddys and are a bit longer - 1 metre as against about 700, maybe 800 mm for the PBs. In fact this is no great advantage as the stake can't go any deeper than the bottom of the post where it hits concrete in the bottom of the hole. At the time I bought them the builders strapping was nearly £2 cheaper per strip than the PBs but at today's prices there's nothing in it. Quite handy to be able to just buy the builder's strapping locally though if needed in a hurry. In terms of effectiveness I'd say there's nothing between them though so I can recommend both. I'm now on a mission to find a local source who will supply the builder's strapping at discount. My neighbour and I have also installed the PBs on 3 of his posts - on the other side of his garden - and they too are absolutely untouched by the winds.

What did not come off so well was a post I replaced a couple of years ago which, although I dug a good deep hole (my usual 2ft+ deep) I only filled with one bag of quick setting post concrete - all I had at the time. The post has not snapped off but has become loose in it's hole and was lying at about 30 degrees off the vertical (and waggling to and fro in the wind) stakes will not sort this one so I'll just have to dig out some of the earth and fire in a lot more concrete. I've got it propped up with an old broom stick just now

I'm afraid this story has a bit of a sad ending though because as I was out taking these pictures our neighbour over the fence at the bottom of our garden - behind my shed - popped his head over to tell me he's having the birch tree taken down.

I'm very sad to hear this as I really like this tree but he tells me he's been advised by a tree surgeon that he'd be best to take it down now before it gets a lot bigger. Next door are very pleased though as it blocks the sunshine from their decking which is at the bottom of their garden and Mrs J says she won't miss it as it stops the sun shining on her washing in the summer which means it doesn't dry so quickly. Best I just keep my thoughts to myself I think.

 

[chr1s]

I'm after your advice @Pugglt Auld Jock . I moved house last week and one fence post was flapping around so much in the storms that I'm surprised the fence didn't come down. Tomorrow morning my new neighbour and I will set about replacing the post before it comes down and cause more damage. He mentioned the previous owner having replaced the two posts closer to the house using quick-setting concrete, and these were solid in the wind.
I have 'inherited' a Metpost with a long spike and a new post, so we will be using these. Guides I have looked at have just shown these spikes being hammered into the ground, with no digging and no concrete, but your post mentions "concrete in the bottom of the hole". Would you recommend digging a (narrow ?) hole, partially filling it with concrete and inserting the spike before the concrete sets ? Or is it better to just hammer it down, without concrete, rather than loosening all the surrounding soil by digging ?

 

[chr1s]

Thinking about it some more, the neighbour said he bought the two Metposts by my shed, and he also said the previous owner concreted the two posts they replaced previously. Maybe this means that they bought but didn't use the Metposts, and concreted the two new posts in the same way that yours were originally erected ?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm after your advice @Pugglt Auld Jock . I moved house last week and one fence post was flapping around so much in the storms that I'm surprised the fence didn't come down. Tomorrow morning my new neighbour and I will set about replacing the post before it comes down and cause more damage. He mentioned the previous owner having replaced the two posts closer to the house using quick-setting concrete, and these were solid in the wind.
I have 'inherited' a Metpost with a long spike and a new post, so we will be using these. Guides I have looked at have just shown these spikes being hammered into the ground, with no digging and no concrete, but your post mentions "concrete in the bottom of the hole". Would you recommend digging a (narrow ?) hole, partially filling it with concrete and inserting the spike before the concrete sets ? Or is it better to just hammer it down, without concrete, rather than loosening all the surrounding soil by digging ?

Hi chr1s. Assuming you're doing a 6ft high fence? I would be using 8ft 4x4 fence posts. I dig the hole slightly deeper than the 2ft as I like to ensure the whole post is being used - ie, I don't like cutting off the tops to get it level. - I use cord (picture cord actually) from the top of the first post to the top of the last one and level the ones in between by chocking under the post with stones etc until the tops just contact the cord. So when I pour the concrete into the hole it finds it's way round the bottom of the post a bit. Therefore when I was driving the metal stakes in they bottomed out on the concrete in the bottom of the hole. Of course if the post was resting on the earth at the bottom of the hole then the metal stakes could be driven in deeper than the depth of the post. I don't think this would have any particular advantage though as the stakes don't get a good grip on bare earth so driving them deeper than the concrete "sleeve" round the post has no advantage.

I've used Metposts in the past and just driven them into the ground without any preparation - assuming it's undisturbed well compacted earth. In fact the two pasts at the very bottom of my garden are Metposts with 6ft wooden posts holding 6ft panels installed in this way and they are still holding after around 25 years (or maybe more) Unfortunately the posts have shrunk and rotted slightly in the socket so they are moving slightly now but the metal is still firmly in the ground. The only problem I have with them is that they can be deflected by rocks etc in the ground. So, if you are using panels, this makes life difficult as it's difficult to get exact centre distances between posts and to keep the posts vertical.

When digging holes to concrete in posts in the traditional way, as long as the ground is undisturbed and well compacted, I find the best results are obtained where the minimum of soil is removed. I've tried digging holes with spades, digging bars, and other less conventional means but a few years ago, after a lifetime of messing about with spades mostly, I finally bought a spear and jackson post hole digger like this one: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/spe...xu_mbTkxqwnrNMzXMvxoC8XgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds although I actually bought the version with the glass fibre handles. and a "rip off" version of the Garden Claw: Amazon product ASIN B0012ZGGOG I turn the Garden Claw in a circular motion to loosen earth to the depth of the tines and remove it with the post hole digger. Then go back into the hole with the Garden Claw and go down another tine's depth then it's back in with the digger to lift out the spoil and so on until you have a very neat hole to drop the post into. A couple of bags of quick setting concrete and you're done. I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly you can dig post holes in this way and with a minimum expenditure of effort too. The whole thing gets much more difficult if your ground is very rocky and the rocks are quite big - then it's just hard work I'm afraid.

Sorry if I'm a bit late getting back to you here but we've been childminding grandchildren all day and have only just got back indoors. - I don't have a smart phone, just my "trusty" old laptop.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well. Sorry, something "weird" seems to have happened to my last post. The link to the Garden Claw doesn't seem to have appeared at all! I'll try again. In fact here's the very make I actually bought: https://www.toolstation.com/draper-...JIfUA7dvqAq71WJGxikaAl40EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Just to encourage you here's some pics of the last whole new fence I did - as compared to recent efforts which have been to repair existing fencing. This was to replace an existing fence at my older boy's house which had rotted away.

Firstly the tools themselves. Here's a couple of pics of the garden claw (clone), Post hole digger and my Hi-Lift jack which is used to pull the old stumps with their concrete out of the ground. In fact I only needed to pull 2 stumps as I spaced the rest of the posts to miss where the original posts had been.





Here you can see what a smashing job it makes of sinking a new hole



I recon you can dig a hole like this within 10 minutes without hardly even breaking sweat!

Next a couple of pics of the partly erected fence and one of the finished effort:







I'm delighted to be able to report that, although they are near the top of a hill out to the south of the city, there has been not the slightest sign of any movement in even one of the posts during the recent storms.

 

[oldmanhouse]

Good to see your 'Post Buddys' are holding up. I was originally looking into them during the first lockdown as a "temporary" measure to fix a post that had weakened at the base, but I went with the Toolstation metal straps in the end and they are still holding up!

However, "Storm Dudley" has managed to snap where the arris rails connect to the post, so I'm researching another "temporary" fix for those. Repair brackets for arris rails seem to be fairly easy to come by. Something that probably should have been installed to begin with..

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Good to see your 'Post Buddys' are holding up. I was originally looking into them during the first lockdown as a "temporary" measure to fix a post that had weakened at the base, but I went with the Toolstation metal straps in the end and they are still holding up!

However, "Storm Dudley" has managed to snap where the arris rails connect to the post, so I'm researching another "temporary" fix for those. Repair brackets for arris rails seem to be fairly easy to come by. Something that probably should have been installed to begin with..

Yes I got on well with the tool station straps too, just a pity they've loaded the price.

Once past a certain age, repairing wooden fencing becomes a way of life - bit like painting the Forth Bridge?

Post buddy from Screwfix: https://postbuddysystem.co.uk/produ...v1MCGhye3N_6MwhKOOqsdOgc2bvbaH1AaAnGeEALw_wcB Vs galvanised straps fro Toolstation: https://www.toolstation.com/heavy-d...QR9mWQC---EtMdjW2FcaAuRrEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds Still enough of a saving to be worth it especially if you're buying a few. However I feel, as the straps are used in large quantities by the building trade, they must be available at a better price somewhere?

 

[DaveMcT]

It's very important to have the bottom of the post sat in concrete. If you leave it sat on the subsoil and pour concrete around, the post risks wet rot from the bottom.
H section concrete posts have no such issues and the fence panels slide into place. High winds will pop them out without damage and concrete gravel boards keep the bottom edge dry. The hard part is holding the posts vertical while you pour concrete and keep the gravel boards aligned.
If I was ever to do another wooden post fence, I would dig out the old concete and use cheap met posts to hold the timber posts into the bottom of the resulting (too big) holes. Then haunch concrete around the post bases for ultimate support. That also allows water to run away from the timber. Finally shovel the soil back into the hole.
The fence panels are retained with thin steel clips - intended to fail before the fence posts break. However their security against burglars is another question.