General Ducato x244 2.0 JTD clutch

[lydecker777]

Hi,

Last year I bought a Borg and beck clutch kit as the clutch I had fitted a couple years ago was failing , along with the gear selector arm seizing up? The clutch was 75% worn after 25k>>

After fitting the new clutch , it's still not right, the bite is quite high which is common on these apparently, however the gear changes are clunky and not smooth , and it occasionally pops out of gear ?

When it's in neutral it's almost as if there's still a bit of drive to the gearbox as it's rattling ?

Now I've read about the thrust bearing that clicks into the pressure plate , my clutch kit didn't have this , and it wasn't fitted to the previous clutch?

Would this be the problem or would adjusting the gear cables help?

I've attached the photos of my gearbox after 2 years that the garage did , and a photo of the thrust bearing I think I need?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

Last year I bought a Borg and beck clutch kit as the clutch I had fitted a couple years ago was failing , along with the gear selector arm seizing up? The clutch was 75% worn after 25k>>

After fitting the new clutch , it's still not right, the bite is quite high which is common on these apparently, however the gear changes are clunky and not smooth , and it occasionally pops out of gear ?

When it's in neutral it's almost as if there's still a bit of drive to the gearbox as it's rattling ?

Now I've read about the thrust bearing that clicks into the pressure plate , my clutch kit didn't have this , and it wasn't fitted to the previous clutch?

Would this be the problem or would adjusting the gear cables help?

I've attached the photos of my gearbox after 2 years that the garage did , and a photo of the thrust bearing I think I need?

I think you have two problems, one the clutch side and the other the gearbox jumping out of gear, can't see adjusting linkage which probably isn't an option on those and the other is the gearbox rattling, which can be the laygears etc. Generally if clutch related then resting foot on clutch pedal , but not enough to disengage clutch, then any clutch issue noise will change, if the rattle only goes when clutch totally disengaged thren that is the gearbox.
Re the clutch, some times if gearbox was rested on the clutch when fitting it can damage the clutch fingers on the diaphragam which can cause a clutch judder that you may feel through the pedal .
Re thrust bearing sticking, usually when fitting a new bearing you make sure it slides easily on the tube that supports it, as long as it is clean that should be enough as most modern release bearings are plastic in that area so "self lubricating" and oil or grease will actually make them stick more.

 

[lydecker777]

I think you have two problems, one the clutch side and the other the gearbox jumping out of gear, can't see adjusting linkage which probably isn't an option on those and the other is the gearbox rattling, which can be the laygears etc. Generally if clutch related then resting foot on clutch pedal , but not enough to disengage clutch, then any clutch issue noise will change, if the rattle only goes when clutch totally disengaged thren that is the gearbox.
Re the clutch, some times if gearbox was rested on the clutch when fitting it can damage the clutch fingers on the diaphragam which can cause a clutch judder that you may feel through the pedal .
Re thrust bearing sticking, usually when fitting a new bearing you make sure it slides easily on the tube that supports it, as long as it is clean that should be enough as most modern release bearings are plastic in that area so "self lubricating" and oil or grease will actually make them stick more.

Hi,

Had a look last weekend and just now , the linkages look ok, and the bearing is right for that engine size apparently... however it seems to me the clutch pressure plate spring/diaphragm fingers are too flat, so there is no pressure on the clutch fork either ? This was originally like this when I looked at the previous clutch prior to this one I fitted myself ...

So if there's no pressure from the diaphragm, in effect the clutch doesnt disengage fully giving all sorts of problems ? And would explain why my previous clutch fitted by a decent garage , lasted 2 1/2 years and 25k..

Now the issue is to find out why the fingers are inverted and not giving any resistance?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

Had a look last weekend and just now , the linkages look ok, and the bearing is right for that engine size apparently... however it seems to me the clutch pressure plate spring/diaphragm fingers are too flat, so there is no pressure on the clutch fork either ? This was originally like this when I looked at the previous clutch prior to this one I fitted myself ...

So if there's no pressure from the diaphragm, in effect the clutch doesnt disengage fully giving all sorts of problems ? And would explain why my previous clutch fitted by a decent garage , lasted 2 1/2 years and 25k..

Now the issue is to find out why the fingers are inverted and not giving any resistance?

To a certain extent a new clutch the fingers of the diaphagm will be fairly flat and as the clutch wears in service the fingers raise outwards slightly. Some models as the clutch wears , the pedal rises indicating adjustment required as a result of that.
No chance centre plate wrong way around, often the they have written in German "flywheel side", normally if that has happened it doesn't totally disengage.
Re hi biting point, I have found some makes (LUK) feel quite weak until bedded in , almost to the point of slipping and complained to suppliers, so if an issue later on they couldn't deny, but give themtheir due it did improve.
To me I like to feel a strong clutch compared with the old one it replaces, but nowadays they seem to go for an "easy action".
As an apprentice in late 60s, it waas fun for mechanics to bet on how many times an owner would stall getting off the forecourt after a new clutch fitted as they bit so much stronger than their old worn one they had become accustomed to.

 

[lydecker777]

To a certain extent a new clutch the fingers of the diaphagm will be fairly flat and as the clutch wears in service the fingers raise outwards slightly. Some models as the clutch wears , the pedal rises indicating adjustment required as a result of that.
No chance centre plate wrong way around, often the they have written in German "flywheel side", normally if that has happened it doesn't totally disengage.
Re hi biting point, I have found some makes (LUK) feel quite weak until bedded in , almost to the point of slipping and complained to suppliers, so if an issue later on they couldn't deny, but give themtheir due it did improve.
To me I like to feel a strong clutch compared with the old one it replaces, but nowadays they seem to go for an "easy action".
As an apprentice in late 60s, it waas fun for mechanics to bet on how many times an owner would stall getting off the forecourt after a new clutch fitted as they bit so much stronger than their old worn one they had become accustomed to.

Yeah, but there's no resistance there at all or very little, and this was the issue with the old clutch,

Would the fly wheel be at fault ?

 

[bugsymike]

Yeah, but there's no resistance there at all or very little, and this was the issue with the old clutch,

Would the fly wheel be at fault ?

Unlikely.
You can get issues with worn Dual Mass flywheels, but usually more like vibrations and rattles etc. when taking up drive.

 

[lydecker777]

Just doesn't seem right that there is loads of movement in the arm down to the biting point , the diaphragm arms are flat almost inverse ..so there's very limited travel ..

 

[bugsymike]

Just doesn't seem right that there is loads of movement in the arm down to the biting point , the diaphragm arms are flat almost inverse ..so there's very limited travel ..

It was a matching kit, not two different manufacturers?
Is it still not totally disengaging?
Is there any wear /damage on the release arm, I know the pivot ball point area can wear through in some cases.

 

[lydecker777]

It was a matching kit, not two different manufacturers?
Is it still not totally disengaging?
Is there any wear /damage on the release arm, I know the pivot ball point area can wear through in some cases.

Matching kit, borg & beck..

There are is an interesting small chuck out the release fork , hasn't deformed it or anything but halfway down , a chunk like someone hit it with a chisel to remove it ..

When you remove the slave cylinder , there is loads of travel on the arm until the bearing touches the face of the diaphragm...

Then it's almost dead stop , as in no resistance from the springs ?

 

[bugsymike]

Matching kit, borg & beck..

There are is an interesting small chuck out the release fork , hasn't deformed it or anything but halfway down , a chunk like someone hit it with a chisel to remove it ..

When you remove the slave cylinder , there is loads of travel on the arm until the bearing touches the face of the diaphragm...

Then it's almost dead stop , as in no resistance from the springs ?

I used Borg and Beck clutch recently on a 1.3 Vauxhall Combo, no problem although I don't think they are the same quality as I always used to specify and fit them in the past.
Do you think something broke up in a past clutch and damaged the release arm?
Generally if a kitr comes complete although a different style it should be good.

 

[lydecker777]

this is when I took the old clutch off, there's something on the arm there ?

 

[bugsymike]

View attachment 471212this is when I took the old clutch off, there's something on the arm there ?

Strange almost like someone had a crow bar in there.
Is that a nick I can see in the clutch release arm aperture/rectangular hole as if corresponding with someone jamming a bar through it when gearbox was in place?

 

[lydecker777]

Possibly ..., you can see the old clutch in the corner of the photo too...the springs are quite flat on that as well ..
Just doesn't seem right to have that much travel on the arm

 

[lydecker777]

Also noticed the gear selector arm on the gearbox is sitting too high ,

Following the gear selector setting process, says to put a 10mm shim under the selector shaft on the gearbox , mines sitting about 20/25mm which is too high

 

[bugsymike]

Are you fitting a new clutch kit?
The one in photo regarding the diaphragm finger height, if it was like that from new I wouldn't be unduly concerned personally, going by many I have fitted over the years.
Where the release bearing touches are the fingers worn down/thin? I have seen that recently on a clutch where the driver was resting his foot on the clutch pedal too much, also that will cause early failure of the release bearing.
Incidentally have you remove the release arm to check for wear at the pivot pedestal, as I think that type of arm has a nylon bush held in with clips that when it wears through then the pedestal and the metal of the release arm wear through causing aweful noises in operation before finally collapsing.
By the way I don't think any of this is related to the gearbox jumping out of gear etc.

 

[lydecker777]

Yeah it was a new kit fitted, that's the old kit which I took pictures prior to fitting the new one ..
Just at a loss now, unless its stretched cables ?

 

[bugsymike]

Yeah it was a new kit fitted, that's the old kit which I took pictures prior to fitting the new one ..
Just at a loss now, unless its stretched cables ?

Sorry re cables are we talking about gear cables or clutch cable?

 

[lydecker777]

It's a hydraulic clutch so gear cables ...

It's almost as if the clutch is dragging ?

Think I might pull the box off and check the alignment

 

[bugsymike]

It's a hydraulic clutch so gear cables ...

It's almost as if the clutch is dragging ?

Think I might pull the box off and check the alignment

Sorry, a lot going on at home.
When box out, maybe double check gear selectors are all free and easy whilst easy to get at.
Re clutch drag, is it possible to press hydraulically with the pedal with engine off and see if getting maximum travel on clutch release arm, incase it is an external hydraulic issue.
If not is there any way either the fingers of the clutch were damaged when refitting gearbox as that can cause drag or unlikely but it has been known for clutch centre plate to be wrong way around.