General Ducato VS Daily VS Master

[UFI]

Looking at a new van again, this time thinking of getting a big one

Three new vans have just been released (two are really just facelifts), making the choice difficult.

I do low mileage by commercial standards and ideally, would like to see 300,000 trouble free km out of it. This might sound like a short life span for a van, but my VW started costing me thousands upon thousands at only 44,000km (out of warranty). I only carry under 300kg in the back normally.

I like the Renault interior best of all, but the exterior is just so damn ugly. I really like the styling of the new Ducato, but the interior is a bit of a let down and I'm afraid I'm still not sold on their reliability.

I love in the pictures the new Iveco (it's not out here yet). I wouldn't mind RWD (although it's a daily pain in the bum for an occasional advantage). It's the only one that seems capable of 600,000km reliably, so my expected life span should be no problem at all. I like the wide choice of engines and even axle ratios.

I know you can have problems with any vehicle and honestly don't mind the odd wheel bearing or other niggle (I can do brakes, bearings and the like myself).

So what do we think?

 

[rolopolo]

My personal view, (courier doing 100,000 miles per year)(current bus Ducato euro 5 3.0 180bhp)

Master, awful turning circle, I'm 6ft1 and although seats are comfy, that gear stick column that sticks out sticks into my legs, I'm actually in one today as mine after 206000 miles threw a fault possible throttle body today. And as we all know anything French have issues

The daily is a more agricultural van, built for hard work and less styling/comfort
But 3.0 and 2.3 engines are same as Ducato and a lot of suspension I believe is same.

Ducato built for comfort as well as work, due to the amount of motor home conversions.

The new one looks smart with those led lights, and as long as the new design scuttle grill (lower windscreen trim) doesn't leak water by the gallon per second like the pre 2014 models then apart from odd issues (no vehicle is perfect) you will have a far more reliable van than ones like mine where I've had to seal the scuttle trim myself after plenty of water ingress related problems like today's!

Just service using the correct spec oil, and don't use supermarket diesel in them all the time as the high sulphur content can cause EGR/fuel inj issues.

I would go fiat or Peugeot 3.0
Then iveco
Renault last choice

That my personal view

If you go 3.0 and drive steady, you get better fuel economy 65mph or less, or sit at less economy at 70mph but engines spinning at only 2000rpm, increased life hopefully

 

[vito115]

Ive ordered a 180 Peugeot, i chose this over the Fiat as my nearest dealer is also a Ford dealer and in my experience there pretty poor ! Coming from a Sprinter i hope im doing the right thing!

 

[rolopolo]

At end of day, Honda cars have been for year the most reliable but they do have break downs, no van or car is perfect,
Fingers crossed you get a good one, and if you drive it hard and uncared for expect the worse

My only issues in 25 months from new have all been related to water getting into the electrics from the badly designed scuttle grill, it was that bad the seal sat qtr inch off the screen along 3 qtrs of its length, heavy rain poured in,
Sorry I forgot one other failure the sliding door needed a roller and adjustment
I was parts manager for a Peugeot dealer up in Yorkshire 2000-2008 and how they were back then compared to fiat aftercare now, you've picked the better marque,

Frustrated as hell with fiat over the water issues and there non interest in solving it, but love the van all the same
Enjoy mate

Ps never been a sprinter fan, rust buckets after a year and injector & DPF probs all the time,

 

[vito115]

Shouldnt have any side door problems ive ordered a chassis lol ! Merc backups superb but at a price First impressions of the Peugeot dealer was good, the salesman knew the product inside out and returned calls etc . What they like on hills im having a 4mtre curtain body, been hiring a 313 Sprinter Luton & that dies & what sort of mpg you getting ?

 

[rolopolo]

Plenty of torque should be no issue on hills, mpg at first will be lower until 10-15k plus covered, depends on how you drive and a curran body will be a bigger brick through the air, as I mentioned above, keep it under 65mph and Eco good, over that speed forget Eco,
If not in a rush I sit at 50 or above, engines is idling at 1500rpm and 70 comes up at 2000rpm where as the old 2.3 Ducato I had 70 was about 3000 rpm so engines doing less work, at 50 on a flat motorway I can get 50 mpg, 60 I get 40-44 mpg, 70 approx 28 mpg or less

Bear in mind your body will most prob affect mpg though mate

 

[UFI]

Master, awful turning circle

I'll only be getting a 3.0 WB so the turning circle of the Master (12m) vs Ducato (11.6m) isn't that different. Iveco manages 10.5 which is better than some versions of the Fiat 500! I do all city driving so that maneuverability would come in handy.

I'm actually in one today as mine after 206000 miles threw a fault possible throttle body today. And as we all know anything French have issues

I'd be very happy with only a relatively minor fault at that sort of milage. I plan on being retired after that

The daily is a more agricultural van, built for hard work and less styling/comfort

Have you seen the new one?

Looks amazing IMO.

But 3.0 and 2.3 engines are same as Ducato and a lot of suspension I believe is same.

Iveco are no longer part of Fiat group so they should be drifting apart. All Ivecos are RWD while all Ducatos are FWD so there can't be too much commonalty in the suspension.

If you go 3.0 and drive steady, you get better fuel economy 65mph or less, or sit at less economy at 70mph but engines spinning at only 2000rpm, increased life hopefully

We only get the 3.0 180 engine here, my VW T5 has the 400nm engine so I wouldn't want less in a bigger van. I always use the correct oil and change it every 7500km and use Shell or Caltex/Texaco diesel.

My T5 is rated for 9.7l/100km city but I use 7.5 (38mpg), so I'm hoping to see a bit of an economy gain too as all the new vans have apparently amazing economy. Ducato 3.0 is rated at nearly 10% better in the city.

 

[vito115]

Does look more modern than the previous Daily, windscreen up same as a Transit ? or is it my dodgy eyes

 

[rolopolo]

End of day mate it's personal preference, I would if you haven't test drive the 3, the Ducato vs master turning circle is massively different, that's my L4H2 Ducato v the slightly shorter master, daily has very short wheelbase which makes it turn on a sixpence, great in town and side streets.

This is my view but a 3.0 in city traffic can be a nightmare, unless the 2014's first gear has been changed to "lengthen" it, I find all the power and torque in the "short" gear too much when in stop start traffic, sometimes the van becomes a nodding dog lol, and I nearly headbutt the steering wheel or screen! It's the only issue I have with the engine/box I'm often in London in rush hour/ nightmare but I beleiv that first gear may have been modified on new ones.
Plus economy will be poor,
I used to multi drop in London 5-4 years ago in my old 2.3 120bhp, that was a dream in traffic,

3.0 is the best on the motorways

Enjoy what ever model you choose mate
Hope this helps

 

[UFI]

The revised Master won't arrive here (Australia) for another two months or so. The Daily isn't here yet either and I don't know when it will be. Only Ducato is out at the moment and the only engine is the 3.0 180. My 174hp VW is the same (possibly worst as it's older tech), I just use 1st to get rolling and move onto second quick. In first there's a fine line between spinning your wheels and bogging down. It's not easy driving 400Nm in traffic but it is good fun On paper at least economy should beat the old van, if that happens I'll be happy.

I'm thinking of doing a factory order which for us here means a six month wait, so I'm tempted by the Iveco sight unseen (would save a few months wait to get the first batch off the boat), problem being I can't really compare to the old model as it's not really anything like the old, and I'm much more concerned about teething problems as it's a fairly comprehensive redesign. The Ducato is probably a safer bet, and the last thing I want is another van with problems. There was already a story of a turbo replacement at under 5000km on the Iveco forum. To balance that Iveco have a great finance deal going and free servicing. Fiat were previously low on the list due to the limited dealer network, but that's improving (they were basically being sold new by two used car dealers), we now have one 'official' dealer.

Is the L4 Ducato rear wheel drive? I don't think they import those here, seem to be FWD only.

 

[rolopolo]

Not much choice in the engine depot then !
All ducatos are fwd mate, don't know what fuels are like down under, and I've been out of the motor trade for a few years but I recall when supplying parts, that Oz had different emission standards than we had, bearing in mind our euro 4 & 5 didn't exist back then, but these standards could make a big difference with the engine/emissions and mpg you get over there, I may be totally wrong but it just popped in my mind

 

[UFI]

OK, so I went to all the dealers today and actually had a very informative day.

First the Iveco dealer, I tested the old, then mentioned I was more interested in the new model and to my astonishment, they had a pair of demo models in for the dealers to familiarise themselves with around the back (Iveco AU mentions nothing on the website, no launch date, nothing). The official launch is still some months away but he was happy for me to drive it

Considering I drove them back to back the old and new didn't feel much different. If you read the press releases and test drives you'd expect a night and day difference, but I really struggled to pick between the two. Both were very truck like and while that was fun for a while, I suspect could get wearisome in heavy day to day traffic (my AVG speed is 20mph). Sitting up so high and reading the traffic for a mile ahead is great though. The new model was the 430Nm model, so it had the old carry over gearbox. I've read the new gearbox for the 2.3's is much better, but alas none available to test.

Ducato came next. Drove well, but didn't feel like 400Nm in a reasonably light van, not the wheelspinning beast that is the T5. The engine was only new of course (44km). I only got to drive the old model as he didn't have a MWB manual in the face lift (the SWB's haven't arrived yet at all). He suggested that they'd drive the same (but of course the facelift has new brakes and clutch and no doubt other changes under the skin). I find it a bit odd that none of the three vans manages a left foot rest. I found the Fiat's gearchange positioned a bit too far forward, and the HVAC controls fiddly and a bit cheap, the new Iveco had great ACC, but Renault's manual controls, though easy to use, felt really nasty. I don't like the Fiat 500's ACC, so I'm not conviced the Ducato's will be better. I also have reservations about the OE stereo which doesn't look like it would be easy to swap to an aftermarket unit.

I disliked the facelift's big stupid cup holders in lieu of the storage bin at the base of the centre console, OEM drink holders never seem to do anything useful, yet they insist on fitting a dozen of them to every vehicle. I wonder if the storage compartment can be retro fitted?

Last the Renault. I dare say I almost liked it best. I only got to drive the older model in automated manual gearbox, but the new demos will be available in two weeks. It rode the best, had the best seating position and should be most economical (Stop/Start on both engine options). You sit a fair bit higher and I didn't really even need to have the seat all the way back. The blind spots are smaller/ better managed. If only it weren't so ugly.

The Fiat's a good bit cheaper than the Renault, is more powerful and looks many times better. The Renault is more economical and I think I prefer driving it (reserve judgement till I can drive a facelift manual).

It's going to be a tough choice.

 

[rolopolo]

You've cornered yourself choices,

The glovebox over here I believe is a factory option, and the 3.0 took 15-20k miles to loosen up on mine, and a few folk expect a racer but it's a van, the grunt really shows when loaded with a tonne of freight and pulling away from sprinters like they're in reverse up hills )

I've run a Renault "low loader" box van 125hp yesterday
It had so many issues and dash like a Christmas tree! 23.7mpg 700mile trip 60avg mph

Today a vw crafter 109 hp which broke down! Won't start when hot, that went to dealers and they loaned us a new crafter 163hp it's actually quite nice to drive, far better 1st gear than my Ducato but only 32mpg on mainly motorway traffic (9000 on clock so not bedded in yet)

 

[UFI]

Ha! I think the dealer was a bit shocked when I said I thought the Fiat would probably be the most reliable

Dealers should really have fully run in vehicles for people to test, otherwise it's all a bit meaningless. VW publish a 0-100 time of 13 seconds for my T5 with a half load, and Renault claim 10.6 for the 360Nm Master, so the L1H1 Ducato should also be in the mid 10's. Not a racer perhaps, but it wasn't that long ago when only Ferraris did it in less than 8

 

[UFI]

So the Iveco will cost ~$55,000 locally, while the Ducato is ~$41,000. However, with Iveco's finance deal it's only $6,000 more in the end, which makes it pretty good value, not counting the free servicing and probably better city economy of the 2.3. On paper it seems to make sense. The dealer apparently has a 2.3 available so I'll see if I can test the new gearbox out.

 

[UFI]

If I understand it correctly, the SWB cannot be had as a Maxi? I don't need a Maxi, but the gearing on the non-Maxi is a bit silly, it works out to 1200rpm at 60Mph, which considering I rarely exceed 40, would mean I essentially would have a 4 speed van. The only time I run on the highway is to give the DPF it's weekly clean out so even then I would need to stay in 4th to reach 2000rpm.

Master has similar gearing to my current T5 which makes it possible to pull 6th from 40Mph, I like the close ratios even if it's a bit short on the odd long run. Iveco lets the customer choose final drives you can be tailored to suit use/ preference.

Also, has anyone got any experience with the factory air suspension?

Choosing a van is a lot harder than choosing a car that's for sure.

Edit: the UK brochure lists a SWB Maxi, but the AU one doesn't. I'll have to ask if I can special order one.