General Croma vs Bravo

[s130]

Well I'm writing this because I'm getting confused.

I love the Croma and if I had to replace my Croma then the Bravo would be my chosen vehicle.

However it looks like the Bravo drive chain is just another GM box/shaft concoction and not a traditional Fiat job. It also looks like the Bravo uses dual mass flywheels on even their petrol engines!!! Why!!!

It is becoming more apparent to me that there is no such thing as a "good old Fiat" any more we have a rather large bag of dubious component parts binned together under a "Brand".

This concerns me a great deal as it is getting to the point where one can not trust a "Brand" anymore.

 

[rossocorsa]

I think all cars are a bit like that, fiat products haven't been the same since the old twin cam finished its long development and production in 1999

 

[tarquin1867]

Must admit S 130 that I agree with what you said about the Bravo.
Imagine being in the design dept at Fiat when they were rocked to the core as the global warming mob managed to get emission controls tightened to squeaky bum levels and they only had "good old fiat designs on the drawing board"..

They had had there head in the sand (Italian Style) and were caught with there trousers down. Then they had to transfer designers onto other tasks and had to hunt round for quick fixes to allow them to catch up. Out came a white knight in the form of GM and the Epsilon chassis which fiat must have thought --"good thats one thing less to worry about" and got on with the emission reductions.
Such problems like the MAF, the drive shaft wobble, the overheating alternator, and the EGR problems have been studiously ignored or in the case of the MAF turned into a money spinner by making it a return part so you think yuo are getting a good deal whereas Fiat are getting the carcases back for nothing and are able to recycle them with new interior electricals which they will have done a deal on
That really does wee me off

 

[s130]

Well needless to say Fiat have now dumped GM and bought heavily into Chrysler.

We have the Lancia Delta and Fiat Freemont already on the market. Will be very interesting to see how these fair wrt reliability etc., however their is no UK base for these models. No doubt more Fiat/Chrysler hybrids will appear over the next few years.

Doing a little reading I gather that back in 2007 Chrysler gave all first owners a lifetime unlimited mileage drivechain warranty. Sadly this was reduced in 2010 to 5 years & 100K miles ..... but still better than Fiats offerings.

The final puzzle I've not unravelled is FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies). The 1.4 Multiair is badge as an FPT unit. Does the matching GM gearbox get absorbed under FPT for marketing purposes? All very confusing.

Meanwhile: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed0a69e6-e7be-11e2-babb-00144feabdc0.html

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

However it looks like the Bravo drive chain is just another GM box/shaft concoction and not a traditional Fiat job.

Only certain setups, and not to dissimilar to the Croma really, thats a Vauxhall engine depending upon the lump hasn't it

 

[s130]

Only certain setups, and not to dissimilar to the Croma really, thats a Vauxhall engine depending upon the lump hasn't it

The Croma 2.2 petrol IS a GM unit

The 1.9 16V diesel is a Fiat unit HOWEVER what is not clear is if the Croma and/or Bravo 1.9 16V diesel engines are GM productions of the Fiat engine.

I read/learnt somewhere that the Fiat produced 1.9 16V engines DO NOT have the oil filter housing on the back of the engine block above the driveshaft but have the oil filter in a more traditional "front of block" configuration. I've since been unable to relocate this information so am unable to say 100% if the Croma / Bravo 1.9L 16V engines are pure Fiat or Fiat desing and GM licensed build (with mods).

Would certainly be nice to know for sure?

 

[rossocorsa]

Well needless to say Fiat have now dumped GM and bought heavily into Chrysler.

We have the Lancia Delta and Fiat Freemont already on the market. Will be very interesting to see how these fair wrt reliability etc., however their is no UK base for these models. No doubt more Fiat/Chrysler hybrids will appear over the next few years.

Doing a little reading I gather that back in 2007 Chrysler gave all first owners a lifetime unlimited mileage drivechain warranty. Sadly this was reduced in 2010 to 5 years & 100K miles ..... but still better than Fiats offerings.

The final puzzle I've not unravelled is FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies). The 1.4 Multiair is badge as an FPT unit. Does the matching GM gearbox get absorbed under FPT for marketing purposes? All very confusing.

Meanwhile: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed0a69e6-e7be-11e2-babb-00144feabdc0.html

Important to note that the delta is a fiat/lancia project based on the same platform as the bravo it has absolutely nothing to do with chrysler baring those offensive badges applied for RHD cars and was born before the chrysler/lancia tie up existed. It sits on a bravo platform but with a slightly longer wheelbase, has rather avant-grade styling outside with an interior not all that different from a bravo, a few more fancy options are available than on a bravo at least in mainland Europe. It was the first car to have the 1956 diesel fitted and also has the option of a twin turbo 1910 with 190bhp sadly never offered on the crappler delta in the UK. I think it is clear that the rebadged chrysler product such as the lancia Flavia are on the whole better than the original chrysler before fiats improvements but basically are in the class of polished turds. I can't imagine why fiat would fit a gm meddled engine to bravo but maybe on a gm chassis they might have done different?

 

[Doofer]

I wouldn't use warranty length as a guide to quality - Vauxhall have been offering a lifetime warranty on their new cars for a few years now. Now there's a company heading for bankrupcy when the claims flood in.

They do have a get-out clause though - at any time they can pay your car's non-faulty market value, scrap the car and declare the warranty void. For a Vauxhall that probably means they'll be scrapped after about 4-5 years, given main dealer labour charges.

 

[rossocorsa]

I wouldn't use warranty length as a guide to quality - Vauxhall have been offering a lifetime warranty on their new cars for a few years now. Now there's a company heading for bankrupcy when the claims flood in.

They do have a get-out clause though - at any time they can pay your car's non-faulty market value, scrap the car and declare the warranty void. For a Vauxhall that probably means they'll be scrapped after about 4-5 years, given main dealer labour charges.

These long warranties are just a means to try to lock you in to main dealer servicing they will only cover things not expected to break anyway not items that can be put down to reasonable wear and tear. the parts and labour cost will not be so high as to Joe public the parts will only cost gm the actual value not the retail one in other words a fraction of list price.

 

[buster]

As regards to the oil filter situation that is 100% correct.Fiat built are on the front,GM built on the rear,with use of a paper filter.From what im aware GM had no input on either the 1910 or 1956 diesels.However they did input on the 1.3 mjet/cdti by means of the adoption of a timing chain.Which incedently is the only weak point of the engine.One thing i find strange is why didnt they stick with the 2litre dti?Direct injection,16 valve all the right ingredients.Its good what common rail can do to any engine when its fitted.Superb product,crap business mentality.Who in the right mind invents common rail then sells it to Bosch.

 

[s130]

Thanks Buster for confirming the 1.9 GM vs 1.9 Fiat built engines and the back / front oil fitler location.

This means / confirms taht the Croma has a 100% GM drive chain and platform with a Fiat / Alfa Romeo dress/uniform.

This makes me very unhappy. Whilst I'm fairly happy with a Fiat designed engine being possibly built by GM with monor variations I'm far from happy about driving basically a GM car wearing a Fiat suit/skirt.

What does the Bravo have? GM or Fiat? Which is which? Wot is wot? For a pure Fiat enthusiast and owner for 40+ years this perpetual dilution of true DNA/pedigree is very disturing and troubling.

 

[buster]

And the plot thickens because the five pot 2.4 in m/jet guise also has the oil filter service centre on the back and at that time Gm were using the dreadfull isuzu v6 diesel in the Signum and Vectra.And as far as im aware never fitted the 5 pot.Explain that!

 

[s130]

And the plot thickens because the five pot 2.4 in m/jet guise also has the oil filter service centre on the back and at that time Gm were using the dreadfull isuzu v6 diesel in the Signum and Vectra.And as far as im aware never fitted the 5 pot.Explain that!

Now this does throw a spanner in the works regarding true pedigree of Fiat Diesel engines regarding who built them.

No doubt the design is Fiat's (class/technology leading as always) but production/alteration by world market usage seems to be another matter.

 

[rossocorsa]

Can't see what the older 5 cylinder has to do with the gm issue?

 

[buster]

Regarding the GM issue were talking about the differences in what is really the same engine.But theres no danger the 2.4 m/jet can trace its roots back to the 2.4td as in the marea.I class all the jtd,s as Fiats creation.The dressing of the engine is just for the application.Fiat diesels were and still are way ahead of the game.Sightly off topic and im not sure weather people will get this,but before the "Industrial vehicle engineering company"(iveco) was about,Fiat heavys were badged as Fiat.And whilst Volvo had their F88 and Scania had their 141 and thought they were a cut above the rest.We had the 170 and 190 series with the 13.8 straight six and 17.2 v8 natuarally aspirated units.Both legendary in terms of reliability.The early days are were Fiat gained the experiance of today.