General Car seems very twitchy after new tyres

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General Car seems very twitchy after new tyres

After having done about 400 miles, things haven't really improved. The car is still pulling left when accelerating and right when you let off. So today with help I've checked the shock absorber top mounts, both look OK. So jacked the car up to check for play in the bearings, which are also fine. What we did find was that the drivers side wishbone can move, the front bolt is moving in the hole. We did change the wishbones in November and the bolts were tight, not sure what's happened, but I am going to hopefully strip the front end down again sometime this week. I presume tightening it up again will cure it, but might need a friction washer.

Anyone had a similar issue?
Not had similar issue with the Panda but had same symptoms with a VW that had trashed the wishbone bushes. Any movement will provide that type of misbehaviour.

When I did Panda wishbones I think its a bolt torque specified and (from memory) probably clamps the bonded rubber centre metal bush. Isn't there a Nylok washer on the back? Or there should be!
 
After having done about 400 miles, things haven't really improved. The car is still pulling left when accelerating and right when you let off. So today with help I've checked the shock absorber top mounts, both look OK. So jacked the car up to check for play in the bearings, which are also fine. What we did find was that the drivers side wishbone can move, the front bolt is moving in the hole. We did change the wishbones in November and the bolts were tight, not sure what's happened, but I am going to hopefully strip the front end down again sometime this week. I presume tightening it up again will cure it, but might need a friction washer.

Anyone had a similar issue?
Here you go, Nylok (number 5) on one bolt (part number 3) presume other is captive nut (possibly the issue? or a rubbish bonded bush?).

1739802298431.png
 
Here you go, Nylok (number 5) on one bolt (part number 3) presume other is captive nut (possibly the issue? or a rubbish bonded bush?).

View attachment 460962
The vertical bolt at the rear seems to be OK, it's the horizontal front bolt, which as you say, goes into a captive nut. I'm guessing that it needs to be tighter, or maybe the thread was damaged and thus didn't go in far enough. It had to be that bolt, the one you have to remove the front of the car to get to!

I ordered a new bolt last night, will change it as soon as it arrives. This time I'm borrowing a torque wrench, just need find the required torque setting for it.
 
The vertical bolt at the rear seems to be OK, it's the horizontal front bolt, which as you say, goes into a captive nut. I'm guessing that it needs to be tighter, or maybe the thread was damaged and thus didn't go in far enough. It had to be that bolt, the one you have to remove the front of the car to get to!

I ordered a new bolt last night, will change it as soon as it arrives. This time I'm borrowing a torque wrench, just need find the required torque setting for it.
Mr Haynes shows the following - note that there's a tightneing torque, and then a 90 degree turn further. Also that it shows a new bolt must be used each time
1739817042349.png
 
Mr Haynes shows the following - note that there's a tightneing torque, and then a 90 degree turn further. Also that it shows a new bolt must be used each time
View attachment 460980
Thanks for that, they are a lot lower than I had thought, I had read somewhere it was more like 100 Nm. The bolts where in good condition generally, guess they suggest changing them in case they have stretched. I have bought a complete bolt set, so will change them.
 
Parts quality is VERY variable. In view of the lbour involved I avoid the cheap and unknown brands.
Bought the arms from shop4parts, but only their aftermarket. So not the cheapest, but not original either, the cost of oem was far too high, over three times the cost. That said the new arms don't look any lower quality, same weight/thickness, a reasonable paint finish and cost me £97. I didn't fit an eBay special. Autodoc had some half the price, Eurocarparts would have been £150 for a generic pair, which the garage would have fitted if I let them do the job.

I didn't change the bolts, maybe I should have. Maybe I just didn't get it done up tight enough and it loosened off. Either way I now know the tyres aren't to blame for the erratic behaviour of the car.
 
Bought the arms from shop4parts, but only their aftermarket. So not the cheapest, but not original either, the cost of oem was far too high, over three times the cost. That said the new arms don't look any lower quality, same weight/thickness, a reasonable paint finish and cost me £97. I didn't fit an eBay special. Autodoc had some half the price, Eurocarparts would have been £150 for a generic pair, which the garage would have fitted if I let them do the job.

I didn't change the bolts, maybe I should have. Maybe I just didn't get it done up tight enough and it loosened off. Either way I now know the tyres aren't to blame for the erratic behaviour of the car.
I had an MOT advisory a few years ago (on ball joints) and used the ECP parts which then failed the MOT the next year. Shop4Parts used next and now on their 3rd year. Your comment re the torque spec; +90degrees almost certainly takes you to significantly higher levels than the initial setting and with a funky new electronic torque wrench this would be indicated as you achieve the +90 degrees. This is expected to yield the bolt which is why they say replace... When you rinse and repeat on the same bolt you are consuming any remaining yield to break (which you really don't want in that blind hole!).

That said; yes I have reused these bolts in the past!
 
Its worth having a really good look at the oem parts and then making sure the new ones look to be at least as strong. I noticed alot of differences some even being pressed where the OEM were cast. I trust S4P not to sell rubbish, but these things are fickle. The dealer in Norwich did the last arms on our 169 and used aftermarket parts that they obtained. They used the original bolts. It seemed OK for 60 K afterwards but was getting rattly just as we changed it for a 319. If the bolts are not corroded or worn they should go around again. I later did struts and steeing ends and the pinch bolts were badly corroded so I changed them but that was a few years back and it cost £4 each bolt if I remember right. If the arms move without sticking and feel OK I am sure it will be fine. I think the suspension is old design, simple and therefore not very long lived. Its a trade off against the cars price I suppose.

How are the tyres? I have noticed Noop (2019 TA 4x4) has also felt twitchy recently and I think its the mud and salt as its usually planted. The winter tyres a re definitely much much better when the temperture is down to 3.5C. The weather / roads have either been wet and slimy or like today dry and dusty for a good while. Tyres these days seem to take longer to settle down. They last longer too, so its likely the compound. New tyres on our 1.2 lounge a month back have had that odd feeling as well. New tyres always go on the front for me for this very reason they cannot be relied on to match the grip of worn ones. WIth it feeling twitchy the back is NOT where I want suspect performance. Also they take the strain of braking and cornering so its sensible to put them where they work hardest when new. Next time I need tyres it will be all 4 which I prefer. I have read a lot about fitting new tyres on the rear axle and regard this as out dated, and a throw back to the days when rear wheels did the work and oversteer was the problem to be addressed. I have been told emphaitcally by several tyre suppliers to fit on the front axle. My logic to new on the front extends to wet conditions when the rear tyres with slightly less tread are running on dryer ground after the fronts have cleared a path for them. I throw tyres away at 3.5mm as the wet braking is so much worse from there down. If its August when my tyres are needed I will wait till1 November to have new ones. Having driven on worn and new tyres for so many miles I think generally if the tyres are legal and still in good shape Im making a fuss about nothing re the tread, aquaplaning aside. Having had an insurance inspector come and look at my car after someone T boned me while I was minding my own business, and seeing tehm go straight for a tread depth check before lookikng at the damage, Im inclined to err on the side of good tread. The 1.2 has also only done 100 or so miles on its new rubber and no real improvement yet. It totally justifies putting them on the front where I can feel what they are up to!!! These are 185 tyres too (wide for a Panda) so its slithering is way out of character. I hate buying tyres unless changing all 4 as the balance is always messed up. I do so few miles now its unavoidable. I shall take Ruby out and howl round a load of corners for 50 miles or so. That should sort it! I did drive an absolutely HUGE milage in years gone by, 16 tyres on my Vectra in 2 years which made Vauxhall leasing cough, so I have tried just about every make you can think of and worn them all out with some brutal driving. Two things I learned are the top brands are way way beter in terms of safety especially in bad conditions, and second you egt what you pay for in terms of better wear. Now I do very few miles Im getting tempted to try the mid range tyres as these are now so much better and wear rates are not relevant to me anymore, however stopping distances in bad conditions and resistance to aquaplaning are two things that matter. 1 extra meter to stop is a thing to tink on. When that rises to 20m how fast you drive is a mjor issue in making a choice.
 
I had an MOT advisory a few years ago (on ball joints) and used the ECP parts which then failed the MOT the next year. Shop4Parts used next and now on their 3rd year. Your comment re the torque spec; +90degrees almost certainly takes you to significantly higher levels than the initial setting and with a funky new electronic torque wrench this would be indicated as you achieve the +90 degrees. This is expected to yield the bolt which is why they say replace... When you rinse and repeat on the same bolt you are consuming any remaining yield to break (which you really don't want in that blind hole!).

That said; yes I have reused these bolts in the past!
Had exactly teh smae thing with ECP parts on a Renault Laguna suspension. You get what you pay for, on most occasions, cheap may not be cheeful.
 
Its worth having a really good look at the oem parts and then making sure the new ones look to be at least as strong. I noticed alot of differences some even being pressed where the OEM were cast. I trust S4P not to sell rubbish, but these things are fickle. The dealer in Norwich did the last arms on our 169 and used aftermarket parts that they obtained. They used the original bolts. It seemed OK for 60 K afterwards but was getting rattly just as we changed it for a 319. If the bolts are not corroded or worn they should go around again. I later did struts and steeing ends and the pinch bolts were badly corroded so I changed them but that was a few years back and it cost £4 each bolt if I remember right. If the arms move without sticking and feel OK I am sure it will be fine. I think the suspension is old design, simple and therefore not very long lived. Its a trade off against the cars price I suppose.

How are the tyres? I have noticed Noop (2019 TA 4x4) has also felt twitchy recently and I think its the mud and salt as its usually planted. The winter tyres a re definitely much much better when the temperture is down to 3.5C. The weather / roads have either been wet and slimy or like today dry and dusty for a good while. Tyres these days seem to take longer to settle down. They last longer too, so its likely the compound. New tyres on our 1.2 lounge a month back have had that odd feeling as well. New tyres always go on the front for me for this very reason they cannot be relied on to match the grip of worn ones. WIth it feeling twitchy the back is NOT where I want suspect performance. Also they take the strain of braking and cornering so its sensible to put them where they work hardest when new. Next time I need tyres it will be all 4 which I prefer. I have read a lot about fitting new tyres on the rear axle and regard this as out dated, and a throw back to the days when rear wheels did the work and oversteer was the problem to be addressed. I have been told emphaitcally by several tyre suppliers to fit on the front axle. My logic to new on the front extends to wet conditions when the rear tyres with slightly less tread are running on dryer ground after the fronts have cleared a path for them. I throw tyres away at 3.5mm as the wet braking is so much worse from there down. If its August when my tyres are needed I will wait till1 November to have new ones. Having driven on worn and new tyres for so many miles I think generally if the tyres are legal and still in good shape Im making a fuss about nothing re the tread, aquaplaning aside. Having had an insurance inspector come and look at my car after someone T boned me while I was minding my own business, and seeing tehm go straight for a tread depth check before lookikng at the damage, Im inclined to err on the side of good tread. The 1.2 has also only done 100 or so miles on its new rubber and no real improvement yet. It totally justifies putting them on the front where I can feel what they are up to!!! These are 185 tyres too (wide for a Panda) so its slithering is way out of character. I hate buying tyres unless changing all 4 as the balance is always messed up. I do so few miles now its unavoidable. I shall take Ruby out and howl round a load of corners for 50 miles or so. That should sort it! I did drive an absolutely HUGE milage in years gone by, 16 tyres on my Vectra in 2 years which made Vauxhall leasing cough, so I have tried just about every make you can think of and worn them all out with some brutal driving. Two things I learned are the top brands are way way beter in terms of safety especially in bad conditions, and second you egt what you pay for in terms of better wear. Now I do very few miles Im getting tempted to try the mid range tyres as these are now so much better and wear rates are not relevant to me anymore, however stopping distances in bad conditions and resistance to aquaplaning are two things that matter. 1 extra meter to stop is a thing to tink on. When that rises to 20m how fast you drive is a mjor issue in making a choice.
The new tyres don't necessarily seem to be the problem now, it's the driver side front suspension arm that is moving slightly and needs to be tighter. I will replace the bolts this week, they should arrive tomorrow or Thursday. It's my own fault, should have changed them when I did the arms and made sure they were properly tightened, rather than the proverbial two ugger duggers! I've never had to change a suspension arm before, so live and learn.

With regards to replacing tyres, I have generally done them in pairs, swapping positions as they wear. New pair to the front, old at the back. However, when changing from winter to all season, I made sure to wear them down evenly and then change all four. That was the same when I swapped summer tyres and recently back to all season. I like the all season because they are just that, they're good in the snow, the cold, the wet, the dry and the hot. The only thing I would say about my current set is, despite having the correct pressure (2.3 front 2.1 rear), they make more contact on the edges than the centre. I took it onto a slightly dusty dry perfectly flat concrete floor with wet tyres and noticed the edges getting dusty, but not the centre. Will have to try increasing the pressure slightly.
 
I had an MOT advisory a few years ago (on ball joints) and used the ECP parts which then failed the MOT the next year. Shop4Parts used next and now on their 3rd year. Your comment re the torque spec; +90degrees almost certainly takes you to significantly higher levels than the initial setting and with a funky new electronic torque wrench this would be indicated as you achieve the +90 degrees. This is expected to yield the bolt which is why they say replace... When you rinse and repeat on the same bolt you are consuming any remaining yield to break (which you really don't want in that blind hole!).

That said; yes I have reused these bolts in the past!
To be honest, I didn't expect them to be like head bolts, stretch and be single use. The only bolt shop4parts listed was the clamp bolt on the ball joint, plus the online guide at fiatworkshop didn't mention replacing them. So it never crossed my mind. Live and learn I suppose.

Just glad it's me that drives the car, my wife would never have noticed!
 
What a difference a bolt makes! Stripped the car down this morning and the bolt had loosened right off. Have changed the bolts for new and made sure they are correctly tightened. The car now drives perfectly straight, no more pulling left on acceleration and tracking seems to be spot on. Can let go of the steering and it carries on straight, even when feathering the accelerator. So I can confirm the tyres are perfect, it's me that was the problem. Feel like a right amateur now, bearing in mind I've been repairing my own cars for more than 32 years and have worked in steel fabrication for about the same amount of time. If there's one thing I know reasonably well, it's how to bolt something together. I estimate I've fitted tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of bolts. I can usually tell you what a bolt is, size, length, grade, finish and spanner size by looking at it. Even tell stainless washers from bzp just by the colour. so this is embarrassing!

Thank you to everyone for your help and remember gents to make sure your nuts are correctly tightened!
 
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