Best metal for socket sets?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I might invest in a reasonable bar as I have to look at the rear brakes on teh Pandas at some point. Maybe I can find a second hand one. I dont suppose it will be getting a great deal of use. There would be no pint trying my little impact gun on the rear hubs as they will be done tighter than it t can go.. All this torque remonds me of my last company Vectra. They did a service and did the wheels up so tight I turned the crank handle whhel brace until it looked like a cosrk screw before resorting to my short breaker and 5 foot of scaffold pole. Even that was taxing. We had a few word and they unwillingly supplied a new wheel brace. Just as well I check these things or I could have been caught out out of hours in the middle of nowhere. This reminds me I need to undo and re torque the wheels on the new Panda. (which is still changing names... will it be Daisy?? Not really a name for a Panda I think. It needs something muscular lol) Im actually expecting this to be good as everything else bar the duckbills has been. They have even treated the rusty air intake bracket under the bonnet!

If you're talking about undoing the big central nut that holds the wheel bearing on the stub axle then yes, you're going to need something substantial. I took Becky's hubs off when overhauling her rear brakes. It can be done with the hub still in place but makes things much easier with them off.

I've written very recently, somewhere on the forum but can't remember the thread, about helping my neighbour identify a broken rear spring on his elderly Merc. We needed to remove a rear wheel to get a better look at the spring pan and my old Britool power bar wouldn't look at it. The bolts were so tight that I had to jump up and down on my new 600mm long Clarke bar to get them broken free. My neighbour's a very "practical" chap - he's a fireman - and knew how to jack the car up but he wouldn't have had any hope of changing the wheel if he'd had a puncture. The alloy wheel was also seriously corroded to the hub and took us about 10 minutes of wellying into it with a club hammer and a bit of 4 by 2 to protect the wheel before we got it off. I'm sure the other 3 wheels will be the same and I've - perhaps foolishly? - offered to help getting them off and, after a good clean up, slaistering a bit of anti-seize on the hubs before reinstalling the bolts and tightening them "properly".

I think the tyre fitting places are becoming more aware of this problem - over tightening wheel nuts I mean. We've lived in this house for about 40 years now and I'm well known locally as someone who "tinkers" with cars consequently neighbours tend to arrive on the door step when they've got car troubles. Helping people undo overtightened wheel nuts used to be quite common but, now thinking about it, it's been a while since I've been asked to help someone with this.

 

[HughJarsse]

I've seen them do that too, but only to check it's at a minimum torque, not the exact torque.

Yeah, but if they are only at minimum torque, I can at least drive home and use my torque wrench to check and adjust, whereas if they are just 'gunned up' with the air wrench, makes it nigh on impossible to get the ruddy things off!!
As an aside, I always take the wheels off, every three months or so, to check they aren't stuck on, and then they go back torqued up correctly, (and also makes them easier to remove if I need to. Done too much grovelling by the roadside trying to undo a 'fast fit' jobbie, gunned up far too tight!! )

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As an aside, I always take the wheels off, every three months or so, to check they aren't stuck on, and then they go back torqued up correctly, (and also makes them easier to remove if I need to. Done too much grovelling by the roadside trying to undo a 'fast fit' jobbie, gunned up far too tight!! )

Please don't take this as a criticism, although I suppose it is? However I'm only mentioning it because you've worried me slightly. I'd be just a wee bit nervous about slackening and tightening wheel nuts/bolts so often. They're not really designed for this. You may find the threads will wear so the bolt will have a tendency to slacken in service? I'd prefer to clean up the mounting faces and apply anti seize? Of course I'm not advising applying any sort of lubricant to the threads themselves. My experience is that wheels treated in this way still come away easily after considerable periods of time - 2 or 3 years for instance.

 

[HughJarsse]

Please don't take this as a criticism, although I suppose it is? However I'm only mentioning it because you've worried me slightly. I'd be just a wee bit nervous about slackening and tightening wheel nuts/bolts so often. They're not really designed for this. You may find the threads will wear so the bolt will have a tendency to slacken in service? I'd prefer to clean up the mounting faces and apply anti seize? Of course I'm not advising applying any sort of lubricant to the threads themselves. My experience is that wheels treated in this way still come away easily after considerable periods of time - 2 or 3 years for instance.

Appreciate the feedback Jock, to be honest, been doing this for years, (now 72, and began driving at 18, passed test at 21!) and did this because a neighbour when we were kids was a mechanic, and spent a lot of time working on cars in his driveway. As a young lad, fascinated to watch, and picked up a huge number of tips over the years. To date, always done this to almost every car I've owned, and never had any problems with wear on the threads. If the bolts/nuts (as some cars were, years ago) are done up to the correct torque, shouldn't have any problems. But, each to his own, and there are many things that people have opposite opinions on, and interested in other peoples views. As our Training mentor at college used to say, You can learn a lot from others,

 

[vexorg]

Yeah, but if they are only at minimum torque, I can at least drive home and use my torque wrench to check and adjust, whereas if they are just 'gunned up' with the air wrench, makes it nigh on impossible to get the ruddy things off!!

I was meaning, even if you see them with a torque wrench, doesn't mean they wont be hard to come baack off

Of course I'm not advising applying any sort of lubricant to the threads themselves.

I put a smear of copper grease on wheel bolts, protects the threads and you dont get the horrible 'ping' 'ping' as you undo them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Appreciate the feedback Jock, to be honest, been doing this for years, (now 72, and began driving at 18, passed test at 21!) and did this because a neighbour when we were kids was a mechanic, and spent a lot of time working on cars in his driveway. As a young lad, fascinated to watch, and picked up a huge number of tips over the years. To date, always done this to almost every car I've owned, and never had any problems with wear on the threads. If the bolts/nuts (as some cars were, years ago) are done up to the correct torque, shouldn't have any problems. But, each to his own, and there are many things that people have opposite opinions on, and interested in other peoples views. As our Training mentor at college used to say, You can learn a lot from others,

Hello to a fellow Septuagenarian! although I've only got a couple of years to go until I'm an Octogenarian! (had to look up septuagenarian for the spelling!) I learned to drive estate vehicles in the fields as soon as I could reach the pedals and passed my test first sitting - mind you that was in a small borders town which didn't even have a traffic light. Only saw my first traffic light when Mum took us up to Edinburgh!

That's very interesting to hear you've had no problems with doing this as it's something that's occasionally preyed on my mind regarding older cars bought/owned by family members. Completely agree with your last statement. I like the saying "every day's a school day"!

The one that always makes me sweat a little is undoing spark plugs for the first time when a new (to the "family fleet) vehicle joins "the gang". Is it going to come out cleanly? has some idiot cross threaded it in the past? If it feels "tight", especially if it tightens up as it's being removed, is it going to break off and leave the thread shank in the head? Removing sump plugs for the first time also stresses me out but, with the repair kits now freely available, the stress is not so high. Brake bleed nipples used to fill me with dread too but are not such a big deal now I have my Vibroshock.

Kindest regards and stay safe
Jock

 

[The Panda Nut]

If you're talking about undoing the big central nut that holds the wheel bearing on the stub axle then yes, you're going to need something substantial. I took Becky's hubs off when overhauling her rear brakes. It can be done with the hub still in place but makes things much easier with them off.

I've written very recently, somewhere on the forum but can't remember the thread, about helping my neighbour identify a broken rear spring on his elderly Merc. We needed to remove a rear wheel to get a better look at the spring pan and my old Britool power bar wouldn't look at it. The bolts were so tight that I had to jump up and down on my new 600mm long Clarke bar to get them broken free. My neighbour's a very "practical" chap - he's a fireman - and knew how to jack the car up but he wouldn't have had any hope of changing the wheel if he'd had a puncture. The alloy wheel was also seriously corroded to the hub and took us about 10 minutes of wellying into it with a club hammer and a bit of 4 by 2 to protect the wheel before we got it off. I'm sure the other 3 wheels will be the same and I've - perhaps foolishly? - offered to help getting them off and, after a good clean up, slaistering a bit of anti-seize on the hubs before reinstalling the bolts and tightening them "properly".

I think the tyre fitting places are becoming more aware of this problem - over tightening wheel nuts I mean. We've lived in this house for about 40 years now and I'm well known locally as someone who "tinkers" with cars consequently neighbours tend to arrive on the door step when they've got car troubles. Helping people undo overtightened wheel nuts used to be quite common but, now thinking about it, it's been a while since I've been asked to help someone with this.

Im glad to hear it, re wheel nuts. I take HUGE exception to people overdoing wheel nuts especially on the girls cars or my wifes in particular.
People who do so get really blasted as its worse than disrespectful to female drivers preveting them from changing a wheel. If I see an idiot at work.... I hand him the cars wheel brace and tell him to undo the wheel nuts with it and usually add 'or else'. The last one round here to get me going was the Vauxhall agent. It means that most of my local haunts make a big thing of doing things properly. My local tyre man retired recently and he was one who always did things properly a master tyre man if ever there was one and a very nice guy as well. He always used plastic tipped tools on alloys, tyre machine set up to avoid contact with the wheels and nuts done up so they can be undone with the cars tools. Not much he didnt know about tyres, much like you. Its infuriating when some idiot moves to do it wrong when its so clear from you and the other proper motor engineers and mechanics on here how basic it is and knowing and anyone working today will have been trained. I suppose if you spend your life just doing that cutting corners is natural.

If I can get the drums off the Pandas swithout undoing the hub nut thats the way Ill go! It says something that with now 5 or 6 Panda having been in teh fleet and a fairly big total milage that I have never had the drums off a fiat. Im now pretty sure the new one just needs cable tightening to get the handbrake travel to 5 clicks. The lever seems totally free until 6 and only starts to have some tension at 7 and there are I think only 8 or 9 steps on the ratchet. The foot brake is absolutley as I would expect and the pedal has no excess travel, it feels 100% , and better than Ruby our other 1.2 on the pedal, but worse on the handbrake. Ruby is now about 40,000 miles so I would expect the pedal to be little longer. I need to open the drums and clean them out to get her back to par. OIn the new car its just exploratory check re the handbrake issues but a clean is probably a good idea even at 17K.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I was meaning, even if you see them with a torque wrench, doesn't mean they wont be hard to come baack off


I put a smear of copper grease on wheel bolts, protects the threads and you dont get the horrible 'ping' 'ping' as you undo them.

Hmm, Copa Slipping wheel bolts? well Yes? I did this for years and never had a problem. That was "back in the day" when I wouldn't have used a torque wrench on wheel nuts. Back then, after years of supervised working and college instruction, you develop a feel for how tight is "tight" and I'd just do them up "nice n tite" with a wrench. Then early on when "let loose in the workshop and I was allowed to use an air impact gun, I would do them up with one of those, almost certainly overtightening them in the process but also saving time on jobs which was bonus money earned. After a while though I worked in a shop which had a compressor running about 150psi and it was very easy to strip/break wheel nuts/bolts with the impact gun so I went back to using a wrench and have done so ever since. I only used grease on the bolts of my own vehicles - anything which slowed you down in the workshop was loosing you money - Gawd, how I hated working bonus systems!

Then Alloy wheels started appearing as standard equipment, some with steel inserts to resist wear where the bolts tightened and some without. The "feel" when tightening the different types was very different. We were instructed to always tighten Alloys with a torque wrench and. if you're using a torque wrench you mustn't grease the threads and that was when I stopped greasing wheel bolts.

Spark plugs are in much the same situation now. I always gave them a wee lick of copa slip before installing but these days you are advised not to and the threads are Bi, or tri, valent coated to stop them reacting and seizing in the alloy heads. It's a must to use a torque wrench when installing new plugs these days too: https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resour...ating also acts as,and/or metal shell stretch. https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/spark-plug-installation

 

[AndyRKett]

https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/spark-plug-installation

a very handy link, thanks Jock.

I have to say, I have noticed more and more people in garages using torque wrenches to reinstall wheels on cars. I think gone are the days of hammering the bolts on with a windy gun, as there was a spate of sheered wheel bolts and law suits not that long back.

Though the thing that gets me is the Golf, Mini and Punto that I currently own all seem to have differing torque figures from about 95 - 120ft-lb, but I have never seen anyone in the garage set their torque wrench before use, so how many are still being tightened to a non specific figure that the last person left on the wrench.

 

[Steveetee55]

I've got 2 battery torque guns at work I use them to get bolts off if I'm in a hurry, I use the gun to wind them back on but not tight I do that with torque wrench one of my guns batteries discharge a bit quick so my is boss letting me have it for my new garage when I move into my new house

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Im glad to hear it, re wheel nuts. I take HUGE exception to people overdoing wheel nuts especially on the girls cars or my wifes in particular.
People who do so get really blasted as its worse than disrespectful to female drivers preveting them from changing a wheel. If I see an idiot at work.... I hand him the cars wheel brace and tell him to undo the wheel nuts with it and usually add 'or else'. The last one round here to get me going was the Vauxhall agent. It means that most of my local haunts make a big thing of doing things properly. My local tyre man retired recently and he was one who always did things properly a master tyre man if ever there was one and a very nice guy as well. He always used plastic tipped tools on alloys, tyre machine set up to avoid contact with the wheels and nuts done up so they can be undone with the cars tools. Not much he didnt know about tyres, much like you. Its infuriating when some idiot moves to do it wrong when its so clear from you and the other proper motor engineers and mechanics on here how basic it is and knowing and anyone working today will have been trained. I suppose if you spend your life just doing that cutting corners is natural.

If I can get the drums off the Pandas swithout undoing the hub nut thats the way Ill go! It says something that with now 5 or 6 Panda having been in teh fleet and a fairly big total milage that I have never had the drums off a fiat. Im now pretty sure the new one just needs cable tightening to get the handbrake travel to 5 clicks. The lever seems totally free until 6 and only starts to have some tension at 7 and there are I think only 8 or 9 steps on the ratchet. The foot brake is absolutley as I would expect and the pedal has no excess travel, it feels 100% , and better than Ruby our other 1.2 on the pedal, but worse on the handbrake. Ruby is now about 40,000 miles so I would expect the pedal to be little longer. I need to open the drums and clean them out to get her back to par. OIn the new car its just exploratory check re the handbrake issues but a clean is probably a good idea even at 17K.

Many years ago, when my daughter was learning to drive, I gave her instruction in how to change a wheel and got her out in the driveway practicing. She said "we should get Mum out here too" so I popped my head in the door and invited her to join us. Her reply was "and why would I keep a dog and bark myself?" Daughter turned out to be a civil engineer and I sometimes wonder if teaching her how to use that wheel wrench was contributory?

Knowing a good tyre man is a great asset. As I've said before, I get mine from Steven at City Mobile Tyres and he does a really good job: https://www.citymobiletyres.com/ He only operates within the area bounded by the city bypass ring road but if you're an Edinburgh person he's well worth giving a try and his prices are pretty good too.

If your Panda has drums on the rear - and most of them do - then I've found they seem to last for absolutely ages. I only changed the shoes on Becky, at around 65,000 miles, because I noticed the friction linings were starting to delaminate from the metal shoes. Otherwise they'd have gone on for much longer. I would certainly recommend that you don't ignore them though as every Panda we've had has had the same problem, which is that there was a big "lip" on the inside of the drums which made removal very difficult as it was hard to get them off over the shoes even after disconnecting the hand brake cables. From my experience I don't think the garages often take the drums off at a service if they seem to be working satisfactorily. A few minutes work with a file or bearing scraper removes the lip making removal much easier next time. Mine come off at every service for a quick look see and clean out.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Though the thing that gets me is the Golf, Mini and Punto that I currently own all seem to have differing torque figures from about 95 - 120ft-lb, but I have never seen anyone in the garage set their torque wrench before use, so how many are still being tightened to a non specific figure that the last person left on the wrench.

I think you may have a point there Andy. I went with an elderly friend to get a new tyre for his car recently - he'd contacted the supplier by phone before asking me to come with him or I'd have suggested he use my guy - anyway, I noticed, with some surprise, that the fitters were using a couple of torque wrenches which seemed to "live" on a table at the side of the shop when not actually being used. Very good I thought. But, now thinking about it, I didn't see anyone even checking the setting before use? Oh deary me! Think I'll be asking the old boy if I can quickly check his nuts - if you get my meaning!

 

[vexorg]

The wheel placed i used recently do set the torque wrench, there's a big chart on the wall then they adjust to suit.