Technical battery or alternator problem, or...

[Stilo Belgrade]

Hello to all of you reading this.

I will try to describe my problem in as much detail as possible. The car in question is 2001 Stilo 1.6 16V Dynamic, 3 Door version. We had no electric/tronic trouble so far with it.

Three days ago my wife was driving back home from a fairly long distance trip (90 miles or so). 6 miles before she arrived home she hit a pot hole causing alarms such as ASR, ESP, EBD and ABS, but apart from "beeps" she got home without any "real" problems. When she arrived I immediately went to check these warnings. As I tried to start the car it just did, well almost, nothing and many more warnings showed up on the screen. Some of them (Loose Connection, Car Security Failure, plus all of the above). So I figured: "Battery!" (i.e. Metallica, Master of Puppets, 1986). Well, after some "testing" I am not so sure anymore.

My testing procedure was as follows:
1. Measure bat. voltage straight after failed ignition attempt = 10.9V
2. Disconnect bat. and measure = 12.2V
3. Connect bat.
4. Position a fully functional other vehicle so that it wold be possible to jump start the Stilo.
5. Measure bat. voltage on the functioning vehicle when off (12.6V) and when on (14.5V).
6. Switch off the functioning vehicle and connect it to the Stilo.
7. Measure both batteries voltage when both vehicles are off (Stilo bat. = 12.5V, other bat. = 12.6V showing the connection is good).
8. Start the functioning vehicle and measure both bat. (Stilo 13.6V - I guess due to high charging current that empty bat. pulls in connection with jump cable resistance, other bat. = 14.5V)
(I also checked 7 and 8 when Stilo bat. was completely disconected from the car and got the same results.)
9. Start the Stilo (it starts up fine but has Engine Failure warning). Measurements taken are the same as in 8.
10. Switch off the other vehicle and disconnect jump cables. Bat. voltage now drops to 12.8V and continues dropping when idling at a rate of 0.1V per minute or so. I let it drain to 12.3V when I decided to switch off the car. Up to this point no warning signs came up except the mentioned Engine Failure.
11. Non assisted ignition failed and all warning signs came up again.
12. Checked for bad earths, and all seams fine (bat. "+" to engine, gearbox, chassis and some other parts give the same voltage as between bat. "+" and bat. "-"; also bat. "-" to other earthed parts of the engine compartment gives 0.01V)
13. Alternator is spinning fine and it doesn't produce any strange noise.

Questions:
1. Is there an alternator fuse that might be blown?
2. Is it still possible that bat. is dodgy in some way? (It is two years old and all through the winter it was starting first time. In general, I had no trouble with it that might have indicated to me that it is about to develop problems.)
3. Or the dreaded question if it is a problem with the alternator, what it might be and how "financially prepared" should I be?

Please help

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

I do not know why I didn't mention this in my first thread:
The day before my wife drove it, the car was returned from an AC specialist. I contacted him and he said that he didn't fiddle with electrics in the engine compartment, just with the bits in relation with the AC that he needed to change. Those were high AC pressure switch in the engine compartment and broken actuator motor (direction control) on a dual zone automatic climate control unit in the dashboard. Also, the system was filled up with gas.

He also mentioned that one of the mechanics had probably left the radio ON (although I do not see how this is possible as the radio has a 20 minute mode when the car is OFF, but lets assume that something was left ON) that drained the battery, so they needed to charge it (while still connected to the car).

My wife took the car from the AC specialist and she noticed that the car gave "Bulb Failure, Rear Fog" warning message. This disappeared next time she started the car. 90 miles or so after that the story above begins.

So some more questions:
1. Is it possible that the problem is "AC specialist" related rather than "pot hole" related?
2. Is it possible that something was damaged (electronics or battery) when it was charged in the Garage?
3. Why in the first place it was drained out?

Thank you in advance...

 

[Deckchair5]

9. Start the Stilo (it starts up fine but has Engine Failure warning).
10. Switch off the other vehicle and disconnect jump cables. Bat. voltage now drops to 12.8V and continues dropping when idling at a rate of 0.1V per minute or so. I let it drain to 12.3V when I decided to switch off the car. Up to this point no warning signs came up except the mentioned Engine Failure.

With the engine running and alternator charging the battery, I would want to see this voltage to be 13.5v minimum and rising
So you have either
Alternator not putting power out
Battery unable to keep charge or
a huge electrical load

BATTERY
First step might be to disconnect battery and recharge it. See if it can hold charge on its own.

ALTERNATOR
In the meantime check the battery to alternator connections particularly the voltage sense wire as the alternator needs to know what the battery voltage is so it knows whether to charge it up or not. Also check the alternator earth

ENGINE WARNING
Find out what the fault code is for the "Engine warning" as this might give a clue although this is most likely to be a low voltage triggered fault and not relevant to the charging fault

LOAD
And then there's the possible current drain, as they disconnected a lot of the dashboard then that could be anything but an easy first step is to disconnect the radio as wrong wiring connections there are often a cause of battery drain and you know they removed that. When you reconnect the battery to the car watch the voltage and if it drops massively then you may have a big electrical short circuit and that is dangerous

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

Deck,
Thanks for a quick reply.

I will charge the battery overnight as soon as I get hold of a charger (should be today after work).

a huge electrical load
- The whole system seams not overloaded and charges both cars batteries when connected in parallel to my other car, whether Stilo is ON or OFF doesn't make the difference. So my guess is that electrical load is not the cause of the problem. Am I safe to assume this?
- What is the best way to measure current from the bat. both when the car is OFF an ON? (I guess the load should be there in both cases.)

BATTERY
First step might be to disconnect battery and recharge it. See if it can hold charge on its own.
- How long should I wait after recharging to measure to see if the bat. holds the charge?

ALTERNATOR
In the meantime check the battery to alternator connections particularly the voltage sense wire as the alternator needs to know what the battery voltage is so it knows whether to charge it up or not
- My hunch is that you are right on the spot here, but please let me know where and how to check this.

Very grateful for all the help

 

[Deckchair5]

I would have expected the power steeering to stop working if the alternator isn't producing charge so did the power steering turn off? You haven't mentioned it and the Stilo is almost undriveable without power steering


You could do a continuity check on the alternator to battery wiring or simply check voltage there when battery is reconnected.


Note the connection from alternator A10 to battery goes through the engine starter solenoid A20 so i'd check continuity from starter solenoid to alternator as you know the starter is working


A bad battery cell would show up within an hour after charging with battery voltage going well below 11.5 v

Stilo should warn of alternator fail and power steering going off in event of alternator fail Alternator should be able to hold up a bad battery voltage without problems so this does sound odd

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

No, power steering works fine, and gives no alternator, or power steering warnings. Although I never use city mode... feels too light for me (personal "taste")... I wil try to switch it on next time I am around the car.

Should i look at the cable 1:
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=0&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=3

And also, is that power line for alternator voltage sensing too, or just for feed? I.e. is it something and somewhere else? As I said before... this looks to me as a possible culprit in this case. What about this connector:

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=1&SGS_COD=10&DRW_NUM=2

 

[Deckchair5]

Should i look at the cable 1:
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?...OD=0&DRW_NUM=3
Yes that's the one for both charging and sensing battery voltage


What about this connector:
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?...D=10&DRW_NUM=2
That one connects to body computer and tell BC if alternator is not rotating or producing charge.

I would disconnect battery and check for continuity between battery + and the large alternator connector B

If your alternator has a separate earth connection then I'd check that out and make sure it hasn't snapped

Have you taken the battery out? Is the casing damaged? Loss of battery fluid?

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

If your alternator has a separate earth connection then I'd check that out and make sure it hasn't snapped
- I believe that it is earthed through the chassis via engine block, but I will check it.

Have you taken the battery out? Is the casing damaged? Loss of battery fluid?
- Yes, I inspected the bat. in and out. No leak and fluid level good. Is there any way to check the voltage between each bat. cell?

If BC does not detect any alternator failure, i.e. not rotating and/or not charging, does that means that the little connector is in place and has good connection to the BC? Also, does it mean that alternator might be fine, and that (I repeat again) you were spot on with the voltage sensing advice?

I am anxious to get back home and try stuff

 

[Deckchair5]

Is there any way to check the voltage between each bat.cell?
Not on the sealed for life type batteries. On some you can lever the top off and check the battery cell acid condition but the voltage drop will show up very quickly after charging if you have a dead cell

If BC does not detect any alternator failure, i.e. not rotating and/or not charging, does that means that the little connector is in place and has good connection to the BC?
Not necessarily, the alternator sends out an earth signal to the BC if it is not producing charge.

Also, does it mean that alternator might be fine,
Very likely, as the power steering and alternator fail warnings should be coming up otherwise

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

Some feedback:

If I reference my testing to the diagram provided, I can confirm that there is Bat+ voltage From A1A to A20A to A10B. The earth is present on the alternator casing too.

I was not "equipped" to test connection that goes through D4 and D7 on 1.6 16V engine, from alternator to ECU. I guess this is the thin black cable with the smaller connector on the alternator, and I still believe that this is the problem, and I am now brave enough to assume that it is somewhere in D4 and/or D7 connector.

By the way, where is D7 connector located. D4 is well documented and I found it.

At the moment the battery is charging indoors.

Until tomorrow...

 

[Deckchair5]

I've never needed to find D7. If you do a contunuity check between the alternator A10 connector A and D4 connector A pin A6 red wire then you'll know whether D7 is ok

Are you able to read the fault code if there is one stored?

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

OK. I will equip myself tomorrow and check between A10A and D4A6.

By the way what is E6015?

Regards and good night

 

[Deckchair5]

E6015 is where it moves out to another wiring diagram or module. Probably the message warning system of "alternator failure"

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

OK, here is the new feedback.

1. Tried to check (i believe I did it right) A10A to D4A6, and no connection was present. Just let me check if A10A is the part where thin black wire is connected, and it is factory marked by yellow smudge on alternator plastic.

2. Charged bat. IN, and car started like a dream. Had a go round a block - perfect. Switched off, had another go, again perfect, switched off and on again and went to check bat. voltage when ON. It was 13.5V and decreasing. So I decided to switch off the car, and measure voltage through the whole ignition cycle. Here are the results:
- OFF: 12.6V
- IGN: 11V for a brief moment
- ON: 14.4V, but slowly (0.1V / minute or less) decreasing down to 12.4V which was somewhat steady, and after a while I switched off the car.

3. I have to mention that all warnings are now off and everything works perfect, even the CITY mode.

So, please advise... as I still believe that there is a problem with A10A to D4A6 line that BC uses to control the alternator... So I think alternator starts off with full voltage, but the lack of control line decreases the voltage later on... And, I might be imagining, since all sound proofing on the engine is now off, that there is a faint, very, very faint intermittent squeal or whine in the general area of the alternator... and it doesn't start immediately, but some time after switch on... And it is only audible when my head is under bonnet...

OK... That's for now... please advise...

 

[Deckchair5]

1. Tried to check (i believe I did it right) A10A to D4A6, and no connection was present. Just let me check if A10A is the part where thin black wire is connected, and it is factory marked by yellow smudge on alternator plastic.
Wiring diagram says alternator thin wire colour is brown ( the thick alternator wire is red). You may have the wrong pin at D4, it's easily done, I do it enough times
It sounds as if that's ok because alternator wouldnt put out a nice 14v + if it couldn't sense battery voltage. The thin wire is only an alternator fault wire to trigger the alternator not charging warning. BC doesn't control the alternator, it's just simply if that wire goes to earth then the BC triggers warnings

Test voltage from bat + to a shiny part of engine
If you have above 14v with engine running
Above 13v with HRS and headlights on
But this voltage should hold steady and not drop down whilst engine is running, it shoul;d go higher as battery charges back up. If it does drop you may have an alternator diode gone or alternator internal voltage regulator fault

Engine off - battery should still be above 11.5v after 2 hours

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

Wiring diagram says alternator thin wire colour is brown ( the thick alternator wire is red).
- Well it is dark colored and Red is Red

You may have the wrong pin at D4, it's easily done, I do it enough times
- I was checking between alternator thin wire and a pin A6 (according to letters and numbers on the connector itself) on D4 (the black connector with the purple slide locking action) and I looked both male and female ends. There was no connection.

It sounds as if that's ok because alternator wouldnt put out a nice 14v + if it couldn't sense battery voltage. The thin wire is only an alternator fault wire to trigger the alternator not charging warning. BC doesn't control the alternator, it's just simply if that wire goes to earth then the BC triggers warnings
- Are you suggesting that thin wire has some voltage on it, or would it be also an "OK" signal for BC if that line floats?

Test voltage from bat + to a shiny part of engine
If you have above 14v with engine running
- Yes I have, but it doesn't hold, it drops as I described earlier, and that is in idle without any HRS or lights on.
Above 13v with HRS and headlights on
- I didn't try this.
But this voltage should hold steady and not drop down whilst engine is running, it shoul;d go higher as battery charges back up. If it does drop you may have an alternator diode gone or alternator internal voltage regulator fault

Engine off - battery should still be above 11.5v after 2 hours
- This morning it was 12.5V. Or did you suggest that I give the contact with the key, switch on HRS and lights, don't start the engine and leave it like that for two hours?

 

[Stilo Belgrade]

One more thing. If I need a new set of diodes for the alternator, or any other bits and pieces for it, would you be able to suggest where to source them online?

Should I go for the new parts, or used ones?

Do you know what type is my alternator (manufacturer/type and/or product number)?

 

[Deckchair5]

Are you suggesting that thin wire has some voltage on it, or would it be also an "OK" signal for BC if that line floats?
It will have an earth value if the alternator is not working and any kind of voltage if it is

If it IS an alternator diode or voltage regulator then it's usually far cheaper and easier to get hold of one from a scrap vehicle and rob the parts from that or use it for replacement

I stripped a 1.6 alternator down recently and took some photos. I'll see if I can find them or make a bit of a guide.

This is a 1.6 2002 Stilo alternator