Bad water pump and head gasket - who should take responsibility?

[Cabrio1997]

Hi,

Took my cabrio 1.2 8V punto for a cambelt change.

Garage said that the water pump looked fairly new and didn't need replacing at the same time.

Within 300 miles, the water pump went, overheated and head gasket now gone (I pulled over within 1 min of the red light coming on - don't have a gauge)

Took the car to a another nearby garage, who couldn't believe that the cambelt had been changed so recently, judging by it's condition and the conditioner of the tensioner. They also said that the waterpump was ancient and should have definitely been changed along with the cambelt.

The original garage don't want to know or take any responsibility, avoiding contact and now being blatantly abusive. They just say that the waterpump definitely looked new and must just have been very bad quality.

Anyway, just would like some opinions on whose responsibility this should be? I don't think I will get anything back from the original garage considering their attitude, but now I will be a few hundred out of pocket for the new waterpump and head gasket so pretty annoying!

I have attached photos of the waterpump, cam belt and tensioner and it would be good to get opinions as to the age of the waterpump, and whether the belt and tensioner look like they were replaced 300 miles ago.

Cheers!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,

Took my cabrio 1.2 8V punto for a cambelt change.

Garage said that the water pump looked fairly new and didn't need replacing at the same time.

Within 300 miles, the water pump went, overheated and head gasket now gone (I pulled over within 1 min of the red light coming on - don't have a gauge)

Took the car to a another nearby garage, who couldn't believe that the cambelt had been changed so recently, judging by it's condition and the conditioner of the tensioner. They also said that the waterpump was ancient and should have definitely been changed along with the cambelt.

The original garage don't want to know or take any responsibility, avoiding contact and now being blatantly abusive. They just say that the waterpump definitely looked new and must just have been very bad quality.

Anyway, just would like some opinions on whose responsibility this should be? I don't think I will get anything back from the original garage considering their attitude, but now I will be a few hundred out of pocket for the new waterpump and head gasket so pretty annoying!

I have attached photos of the waterpump, cam belt and tensioner and it would be good to get opinions as to the age of the waterpump, and whether the belt and tensioner look like they were replaced 300 miles ago.

Cheers!

that corrosion on the outside of the belt idler bearing is indicative of it being at least 2 years old..unless it's been parked on a BEACH / quayside..

the writing on the outside of belts tends to be rubbed away over time..to a "polished look"

so at best they had just changed the belt..

Charlie

 

[Cabrio1997]

that corrosion on the outside of the belt idler bearing is indicative of it being at least 2 years old..unless it's been parked on a BEACH / quayside..

the writing on the outside of belts tends to be rubbed away over time..to a "polished look"

so at best they had just changed the belt..

Charlie

Thanks a lot!

How old would you say that water pump is and do you think they have any excuse for thinking it was 'quite new' - assuming they didn't take it off and look inside.

 

[varesecrazy]

How old would you say that water pump is and do you think they have any excuse for thinking it was 'quite new' - assuming they didn't take it off and look inside.

difficult to say..,

could you take a sharper focus picture of the belt..?? I've a suspicion that's OLD too.
( and they've done ZERO WORK)

 

[Cabrio1997]

difficult to say..,

could you take a sharper focus picture of the belt..?? I've a suspicion that's OLD too.
( and they've done ZERO WORK)

I can get a better pic tomorrow. What exactly should I be looking for? The white writing has definitely started rubbing off, the teeth have some nicks in them and the outside has shiny stripes on it (corresponding to the teeth on the inside). I had only driven about 300 miles with this belt before these pics were taken. I have seen belts that have done 70k, and this belt looks worse, but then I guess it could just be a poor quality aftermarket belt.

 

[varesecrazy]

I can get a better pic tomorrow. What exactly should I be looking for? The white writing has definitely started rubbing off, the teeth have some nicks in them and the outside has shiny stripes on it (corresponding to the teeth on the inside). I had only driven about 300 miles with this belt before these pics were taken. I have seen belts that have done 70k, and this belt looks worse, but then I guess it could just be a poor quality aftermarket belt.

OR - IF the idler / tensioner bearing is starting to SEIZE it'll soon scrub away the text..

 

[portland_bill]

As above, we need a better focus pic of the bits.

Outside of pump looks scruffy, but will reach this state quite quickly, so difficult to judge its age when fitted.
The state of it inside suggests it has been in there some time, but the rusty impeller suggests run for some time without coolant. Whilst we often refer to the coolant as 'anti-freeze' that is only one of its functions. Just as important is its anti-corrosion properties, but warmer climates often leave it out, with disastrous results. It is quite likely that the seals in the pump failed due to corrosion contamination. Not the fault of this garage, unless they've looked after it for some time and have charged for non-existant coolant.
The red sealant shows this is not the original pump

Take a pic of the belt without bending it. Important to diagnose tooth failure. If possible, indicate direction of travel, as tooth failure can indicate too tight, or too loose, but failure will be different.

Did the garage give an itemised bill of the parts fitted? Just belt, or kit of belt and tensioner?

 

[Cabrio1997]

As above, we need a better focus pic of the bits.

Outside of pump looks scruffy, but will reach this state quite quickly, so difficult to judge its age when fitted.
The state of it inside suggests it has been in there some time, but the rusty impeller suggests run for some time without coolant. Whilst we often refer to the coolant as 'anti-freeze' that is only one of its functions. Just as important is its anti-corrosion properties, but warmer climates often leave it out, with disastrous results. It is quite likely that the seals in the pump failed due to corrosion contamination. Not the fault of this garage, unless they've looked after it for some time and have charged for non-existant coolant.
The red sealant shows this is not the original pump

Take a pic of the belt without bending it. Important to diagnose tooth failure. If possible, indicate direction of travel, as tooth failure can indicate too tight, or too loose, but failure will be different.

Did the garage give an itemised bill of the parts fitted? Just belt, or kit of belt and tensioner?

Thanks a lot, very useful info.

I just checked the bill and I wasn't charged for a tensioner. Would it not be standard to also change the tensioner if I booked the car in for a 'cam belt change'?

Also, do you know what the official guideline is for changing the waterpump? I thought that it should always be changed with the cambelt if you were not certain when it was last changed.

Will post up some more pics of the belt later.

 

[portland_bill]

It is poor to replace only the belt, unless it is being replaced early due to another fault, like changing head gasket or water pump. A good garage would always recommend changing the tensioner to prevent premature failures that might come back at them. It takes a few minutes to change when the belt if off, so a false economy not to change it. It does look old.

If the tensioner is spun, it should do so freely and smoothly. If it is tight, or rough, it may well have contributed to early belt failure.

There is no official recommendation about changing the pump, as far as I am aware, but again, it is easy to change when the belt is done. For the cost of the pump and some coolant, and an extra half-hour labour, always worth doing.
If the pump failed so soon after the belt change, I would have expected it to have felt rough when turned, and the garage should have recommended a replacement.

Whilst this means many good tensioners and pumps have been scrapped, it also means many failures have been saved.

Sadly, although the garage should have recommended tensioner and pump replacement, it will be difficult to argue that the failure is their fault. Similarly with the tensioner, although if the tensioner seized, it is likely to have been poor at belt replacement. Arguing that one would be difficult.
A belt tooth coming off can be caused by either too tight, or too loose. If the garage overtensioned it, the failure could be their fault, and you could argue that the pump failed because the belt was too tight. Ideally, the belt should be sent to its manufacturer for inspection, but it is important to mark its direction of rotation. Tight or loose will remove teeth differently.

Normally, the teeth do not drive the pulleys. The outer band of the belt provides the driving force. the teeth are merely there to ensure the timing stays correct.
A tight belt will tend to stretch a little between the pulleys, and then be squeezed back to normal size as they run across the pulley teeth. This tears the teeth from their leading edge.
A loose belt will rely on the teeth to drive the pulleys, so that will pull the teeth off from their trailing edge. So direction of rotation is important in diagnosis. Both the above should show distress on all or most teeth, although only a few may fail, as that stops the engine and prevents further teeth failing.

If pump seized, even momentarily, teeth will strip at that point. The rest of the teeth would probably look fine. You bent the belt to take the photo, don't do it again, it may make diagnosis difficult if you cause further damage.

 

[Cabrio1997]

Sadly, although the garage should have recommended tensioner and pump replacement, it will be difficult to argue that the failure is their fault.

Thanks a lot for such a comprehensive reply. I did specifically ask the garage if the water pump needed changing and they told me that it looked fairly new and did not need changing.

The old tensioner makes a whirring noise when spun

Basically the garage's argument is that the water pump looked new when they did the belt (300 miles ago) and when I showed them the photos they still said it was new but very low quality and must have failed early. Unfortunately I bought the car without any history so I don't know either way.

I don't think I will have any comeback on them (they have ignored my calls and messages for over two weeks - which makes me suspicious), but it would just be good to know if I am being unreasonable or not!