Technical Axle stands - the definitive position?

[benmac]

Apologies as I know it's been discussed previously but I'm not 100% on the definitive answer.

I've lifted my Panda a few times now since having it. Using a trolley jack and an ice hockey puck I've used the points on the chassis used for 2 post lifts. All has been fine. I haven't used axle stands yet though as I've only ever needed to lift it briefly (to have a clean under the arches etc) so just left it on the jack (one that'll do 3.5tons so it's not really trying with the Panda).

However, I want to change the discs and pads at both ends so want it up on stands. I'll also give the calipers a good clean and paint while it's up so even more reason it needs to be on stands.

In addition to my jack I already have decent axle stands with removable rubber top pieces, ice hockey pucks with slots cut in etc so should have all the equipment I need.

I've seen discussion of it being a case of lift it on the chassis points as I have been doing then pop the axle stands under the marked jacking points on the sills? Is that right? I'll be happy to do one corner at a time as I can get away with not driving it for a couple of days, therefore the other three wheels will remain on terra firma.

 

[porta]

One thing I have found, on axle stands, is that it’s best to put them on the lift points and Jack on the jacking points. I also, usually, do one side first rather than both front/both rear, as I can swap the tyres round at the same time

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I'd agree: if it's going to stand for a time, put the stands where the factory support it (the two-post lift points), but raise it briefly using a jack (and appropriate -- ideally notched -- block etc) on the sill jacking points. That also then means there's room to place the stands and then be able to wheel the jack away. Have a look at the 'similar thread' that's probably listed under this (here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/jacking-point-to-fit-jack-stands-in.499467) and see the info about the structurally similar 500 linked to from that other thread too.

(AS an aside, having supplemented my Panda 4x4 with a 2013 Defender, its interesting to see how that gets jacked up - direct on the solid axle casings and the axles stands actually used (as their name suggests), also under the axle beams. There isn't really a 'body' jacking point on that at all, unless you have a two post lift with long arms to reach under to the chassis)

 

[Skomervole]

So glad I've discovered this forum - it's been invaIuable in working on a recently acquired 2014 Panda which hasn't been serviced for a very long time. I have tried raising the car with a trolley jack (and slotted rubber block) on the sill where it is marked with the notch/arrow - but cannot then position axle stands on the two post lift points as the jack is in the way. Is it Ok to raise the car on the sill seam away from the arrow mark or are they only strengthened at that point?

 

[The Panda Nut]

So glad I've discovered this forum - it's been invaIuable in working on a recently acquired 2014 Panda which hasn't been serviced for a very long time. I have tried raising the car with a trolley jack (and slotted rubber block) on the sill where it is marked with the notch/arrow - but cannot then position axle stands on the two post lift points as the jack is in the way. Is it Ok to raise the car on the sill seam away from the arrow mark or are they only strengthened at that point?

I have jacked away from the marked points but you need to be careful. The marked points are strengthened and they have been tried in design and designed to take the weight. Moving further away chanhges the weight lifted quite a bit due to leverage effect. Maybe use two jacks? Use a plank / sections of wood to spread the along the floor / cill, watch carefully as well as you lift. I jack under the trailing arms as a small amount of jacking gets the car up well and the structure is strong under the end of the arm especially if you are careful how the jack is located. It seems to work well.

You can move the jack a little each way at the jacking point and still be on the strengthened section which may give you the required room. An inch makes a lot of difference.

If resting stands on the ends of the 'chassis' sections take care not to push the plastic sealing plugs into the box sections!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

So glad I've discovered this forum - it's been invaIuable in working on a recently acquired 2014 Panda which hasn't been serviced for a very long time. I have tried raising the car with a trolley jack (and slotted rubber block) on the sill where it is marked with the notch/arrow - but cannot then position axle stands on the two post lift points as the jack is in the way. Is it Ok to raise the car on the sill seam away from the arrow mark or are they only strengthened at that point?

The answer is it's only the specific jacking points which are strengthened to take the jack so you're probably safer not to jack in the middle of the sills. Having said that I made up some custom load spreading "pucks" out of wood and bits of old car inner tube:

and, as you can see above they seem to spread the load enough to allow jacking up on the thinner sill metal midway between the jacking points. I've jacked all our Pandas and my boy's Punto up like this without any problems but it does rather assume that the sills are sound. If there's any question around corrosion I wouldn't be doing it.

I'm a little puzzled as to why you're having problems locating the axle stand when jacking up on the authorized jacking point though? Here's mine with the jack lifting on the reinforced jacking point and the stand positioned on the reinforced box section:

Regarding where you can safely put the stands. I go for the box sections like this:

Or the front subframe:

If you're going to do it on the subframe then position the stands under where the subframe mounting points are so that forces are fed vertically up into the body structure and so minimize any tendency for distortion. Like this:

The rear can be supported on the box sections in the same way:

But absolutely definitely do not jack up on the middle of the rear axle beam. If it bends it will throw the entire rear geometry out and a new axle will be needed. If you're buying one of these always take a close look at rear axle because they are bad for rusting out the spring pans but I also look very carefully at the middle of the beam for any signs it may have been jacked here. It might be a deal breaker for me and definitely a point on which I would argue price.

 

[jrkitching]

The ultra cautious will avoid either lifting or supprting the car anywhere on the sills; even if you spread the load sufficiently to avoid any obvious visual damage, there is always the risk of opening up a sealed seam and letting moisture in, leading to the sill corroding from the inside.

Finding an older Panda/500 without some evidence of sill damage caused by jacking is probably the exception rather than the rule.

I rejected a brand new Panda with obvious damage on the front lower sill seams; fortunately the dealership had quite a few similar cars and we were able to swap it with one in the compound that hadn't been PDI'd yet.

Anywhere on the rear beam is an absolute no; it is easily bent and that will put the rear wheel alignment out.

I also wouldn't do anything which involves putting a load on the sump.

Basically, that leaves the chassis hardpoints, most of which are obvious.

If you're concerned about the security of your jack, and can only find one useable hardpoint, you could consider using jack locking pins.

 

[chris3234]

Only my Tipo and my 500 previously
I've Allways used the front subframe where it's bolted to the body shell to put the axle stands onto
Then you know you got. A very strong area of the car to take the weight
Less chance of it shifting a little and damaging the body shell like using the sill

 

[Skomervole]

Thanks for the advice - the photos are particularly helpful. I have a small (Clarkes 2 tonne DIY )trolley jack which is operating at close to max height - which means it ends up sitting too far in to get an axle stand on the two post lift point (at the large round hole) However I may be able to either move the jack a little, move the axle stand in board of the "large round hole" or use the subframe mounting points. I'll have a look in the morning - and perhaps get a larger trolley jack.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the advice - the photos are particularly helpful. I have a small (Clarkes 2 tonne DIY )trolley jack which is operating at close to max height - which means it ends up sitting too far in to get an axle stand on the two post lift point (at the large round hole) However I may be able to either move the jack a little, move the axle stand in board of the "large round hole" or use the subframe mounting points. I'll have a look in the morning - and perhaps get a larger trolley jack.

We had quite a conversation on the forum a wee while ago about how big a trolley jack needs to be to be useful for "serious" home mechanicing work. I think it was a thread which Anthony started off when he was faced with much the same problem as you. Oh, here it is: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/opinions-on-this-trolley-jack.509606/ Might take you a wee while to wade through it but there's quite a bit of "stuff" you could chew on.

 

[jrkitching]

...about how big a trolley jack needs to be to be useful for "serious" home mechanicing work

It's not just how big it needs to be, either. If you've got a lowered car, or one with side skirts, it might also be about how low it will go.

 

[Skomervole]

I managed to get the axle stands in place on the 2 post lift points using my Clarke DIY trolley jack (and a Draper puck) a couple of inches back from the mark on the sill. It's OK for the time being but to get it any higher I will need a better jack - I'll have a look at the trolley jack thread.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Just some observations. Several months ago I had the opportunity to exam the internal structure of a fiat sill. At the jacking point there are additional layers. If you look at the jack top it is biased to lift on the box section behind the vertical lip. This may be for cosmetic rather than structural reasons. Personally I prefer bottle jacks (Defender/disco so plenty of height and load capacity) as they rise vertically, rather than in an arc with the theory that the body will crawl to keep the head engaged.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just some observations. Several months ago I had the opportunity to exam the internal structure of a fiat sill. At the jacking point there are additional layers. If you look at the jack top it is biased to lift on the box section behind the vertical lip. This may be for cosmetic rather than structural reasons. Personally I prefer bottle jacks (Defender/disco so plenty of height and load capacity) as they rise vertically, rather than in an arc with the theory that the body will crawl to keep the head engaged.

Oh yes, always advisable to jack in the designated positions - doing it elsewhere is much more risky but, with experience, you discover what you can get away with and what the danger signs are that something is going wrong. ie. the stomach lurching crunchy/cracking sounds of a corroded sill starting to give way

Personally I'm not a fan of bottle jacks for jacking up vehicles as, in my experience, they are not particularly stable at any time and get even more "wobbly" the more you extend them. I do quite like a Farm Jack for stuff like Land Rovers and, when not using it on one you can haul tree stumps and fence posts out with them. Make a support frame so you can triangulate forces and stop it falling over and it becomes a really useful tool:

Here it is assembled and pulling out a quite well established Viburnum. I could have just dug it out but a bit quicker and a lot less effort with the jack.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Oh yes, always advisable to jack in the designated positions - doing it elsewhere is much more risky but, with experience, you discover what you can get away with and what the danger signs are that something is going wrong. ie. the stomach lurching crunchy/cracking sounds of a corroded sill starting to give way

Personally I'm not a fan of bottle jacks for jacking up vehicles as, in my experience, they are not particularly stable at any time and get even more "wobbly" the more you extend them. I do quite like a Farm Jack for stuff like Land Rovers and, when not using it on one you can haul tree stumps and fence posts out with them. Make a support frame so you can triangulate forces and stop it falling over and it becomes a really useful tool:

View attachment 454404

Here it is assembled and pulling out a quite well established Viburnum. I could have just dug it out but a bit quicker and a lot less effort with the jack.

View attachment 454402

I also have a farm jack. pity your triangulation piece has the angle bracket not welded with the leg down as a "spade", to dig in rather than act as a ski? I tend to use a 18" square of 3/8" steel plate under bottle jack, then more stable, in the same way that a foot plate available for the farm jacks.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I also have a farm jack. pity your triangulation piece has the angle bracket not welded with the leg down as a "spade", to dig in rather than act as a ski? I tend to use a 18" square of 3/8" steel plate under bottle jack, then more stable, in the same way that a foot plate available for the farm jacks.

see what you mean about the angle iron. Hadn't thought about it. Not been a problem so far, but I could always angle grinder cut it off and weld it back on upside down if needs be. Thanks for that.

Edit. I carry a similar sized piece of multi marine ply - probably about 13 ply to put under the "suicide" jack in the car if I ever have to use it on a softer surface - which I would do with only the greatest reluctance, but sometimes needs be.