Technical 500 Topolino Hybrid cars ?

[loveshandbags]

I got into a Nissan Leaf at a 'poor cousin' of the UK Chelsea Gardens last Sunday and from having a good chat with the rep from Nissan (he was very knowledgeable) - I realised that

1. Technology is there and it's 'big' - reckon that it would be a tight squeeze to make it fit into a 500.
2. The promise of the hybrid 500 given that the TA engine is small allows room for a 'wee' battery to 'help' power the car in the engine bay.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/254401/fiats_hybrid_500_charges_up.html
3. The power from a battery should be great 'off the line' and would reduce the 'real world' fuel consumption for an 'urban' car.
4. Topolino model - will this ever appear ? A lot of articles going way back
http://www.worldcarfans.com/1080708774/fiat-topolino-spy-photos
and it refers to using this 'new' engine if it ever appears. The lighter a car gets - the better for mpg - most cars these days seem to be gaining weight with all the regs for safety, etc - just look at the US 500 model.
5. Even the likes of BMW are bringing in technologies like brake-energy-regeneration (it might help the S/S )
http://green.autoblog.com/2007/03/27/new-bmw-m3-v8-engine-features-brake-energy-regeneration/

I read some figures last day that Electric cars with their zero emissions had a real emission figure of around 105grs/km but if you use 'night time saver' electricity it drops to 80grs/km. So if the hybrid 500 makes an appearance it beats / competes with the electric 'tree huggers'.

Does anyone really know what's in the pipeline in relation to the 500 / Topolino hybrid models ?

 

[306maxi]

Michael,

I would take anything eutoexpress says with a bag of salt

 

[loveshandbags]

Michael,

I would take anything eutoexpress says with a bag of salt

Well - I have a test drive booked in a Nissan Leaf tomorrow morning. I'm not buying but it should be interesting. Its amazing what market forces can do to prioritising the release of technologies.

Just paid €1.47 for a gallon of petrol last week (equivalent to st£1.30) so it would take a lot of annual mileage to re-coup the 5 year life of the €10K replacement battery cost. (the current Government subsidy of €5K isn't going to last).

 

[jrkitching]

...Even the likes of BMW are bringing in technologies like brake-energy-regeneration...

This is an interesting idea. A week's holiday in the Peak District made me realise how much fuel is wasted when you have to use the brake to descend hills - I was struggling to get within 10mpg of my usual trip figures. Even a rudimentary implementation of regenerative braking would save something - the trick is to do it without spending a fortune on electric motors & other modifications.

I'm thinking along the lines of doubling the capacity of the battery, fitting a heavy duty alternator, and electronically switching the alternator in/out to increase engine braking when the throttle is closed. Software could allow the battery to discharge up to 50% in normal running, to be replenished when the car is descending or slowing with the throttle closed.

Haven't worked out any numbers yet, but I'd bet this could achieve a 5% fuel saving for an additional one-off cost of around £200, which would be well worth it over the life of the car.

 

[306maxi]

This is an interesting idea. A week's holiday in the Peak District made me realise how much fuel is wasted when you have to use the brake to descend hills - I was struggling to get within 10mpg of my usual trip figures.

That is where IMHO wider tyres can work well at giving you better fuel economy due to the fact that you can carry more speed through the corners. But of course they'll still be worse overall in terms of fuel economy.

 

[jrkitching]

That is where IMHO wider tyres can work well at giving you better fuel economy due to the fact that you can carry more speed through the corners.

I found it wasn't so much the corners as the blind junctions at the bottom of the hills.

On most of the hills, there just wasn't any way of dissipating the potential energy of the car without using the brakes if you wanted to have a reasonable chance of being able to use the car again afterwards.

Think about the run from Llanberis to Pen-y-Gwryd - you're going to burn a fair bit of fuel climbing up to Pen-y-Pass & you'll have to brake most of that off on the descent if you don't want to end up in a field at the bottom, however fast you take the corners.

Taking the load off the alternator on the climb would save some fuel, and the battery can be recharged once you start going downhill.

 

[306maxi]

I found it wasn't so much the corners as the blind junctions at the bottom of the hills.

On most of the hills, there just wasn't any way of dissipating the potential energy of the car without using the brakes if you wanted to have a reasonable chance of being able to use the car again afterwards.

Think about the run from Llanberis to Pen-y-Gwryd - you're going to burn a fair bit of fuel climbing up to Pen-y-Pass & you'll have to brake most of that off on the descent if you don't want to end up in a field at the bottom, however fast you take the corners.

Taking the load off the alternator on the climb would save some fuel, and the battery can be recharged once you start going downhill.

Well funnily enough I drive that road quite a bit and other than the 1 big corner and obviously the junction, you don't really need to brake much, but that's someone who knows the road, if it were your first time you'd be well advised to be more cautious than me!

 

[jrkitching]

... and other than the 1 big corner and obviously the junction...

Exactly the point. It doesn't matter where you brake; anytime you brake you are throwing away energy you've paid for in fuel. Speeding round the corners won't help if you still have to brake at the bottom. Anything which reduces the amount of braking you need to do, even by a small amount, will help fuel consumption.

IMHO, improving the economy of the global car fleet isn't about giant leaps in technology which will add £'000s to the cost of a new car; it's about making innovative little changes which individually may only make a small difference, but which collectively add up to significant savings. In its simplest form, it might be possible to implement my suggestion with just a software change to control the charging circuit more intelligently.

What manufacturers do need to do, though, is to place more emphasis on making cars which perform well in real-life driving, rather than focusing incessantly on optimising their cars to obtain one particular set of rolling road figures in laboratory conditions to gain some arbitrary but relatively meaningless (in planetary ecological terms) fiscal advantage. And while they're at it, they might like to consider that here in the UK we spend quite a large percentage of our time driving when the ambient temperature is nowhere near 20C.

Sorry if this seems like a rant but it's something I actually feel rather strongly about.

 

[loveshandbags]

I got into a Nissan Leaf ...
1. Technology is there and it's 'big' - reckon that it would be a tight squeeze to make it fit into a 500.

After looking at the Leaf there was a massive bar running across the back of the seats I got the impression they would never be able to fit all that gear in the 500 - looks like it has been 'done' and the US seem to leading the 'charge'. I wonder if the California zero-emission mandate has anything to do with it ?
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/electric-fiat-500-bellissimo/
http://gigaom.com/cleantech/chrysler-to-launch-electric-fiat-500-with-a123-batteries-in-2012/

 

[TrevC]

"I'm thinking along the lines of doubling the capacity of the battery, fitting a heavy duty alternator, and electronically switching the alternator in/out to increase engine braking when the throttle is closed. Software could allow the battery to discharge up to 50% in normal running, to be replenished when the car is descending or slowing with the throttle closed."
I suspect that's what the BMW and AUDI systems do, although I think they use regenerative braking to charge the battery, and save a lot of alternator load on the engine. It seems that these days manufacturers are finding lots of ways to save littlie bits of fuel. To that end, it seems illogical to me that when I press the ECO switch on my TA, the steering assistance is increased. Surely this uses more power and is anti-eco (and totally unnecessary).

 

[306maxi]

I use a form of regenerative braking myself If it's a hot day I'll turn the air conditioning on when I'm going downhill and need to slow down

 

[jrkitching]

I use a form of regenerative braking myself If it's a hot day I'll turn the air conditioning on when I'm going downhill and need to slow down

Every little helps

Turning it off when climbing steep hills helps too

 

[loveshandbags]

I suspect that's what the BMW and AUDI systems do, although I think they use regenerative braking to charge the battery,

Nissan do a lot of regenerative braking in the Electric technology. You can skip to 1:36 to see it in action...


I had that test this morning in the €30K Leaf car and I was 'blow away'. I'm going to let the pros do the talking and I would agree with all that has been said...


Real world economy is a 50 mile round trip on a Motorway taking it 'handy' on the way back. And you need a secure location to charge the battery overnight.

If Fiat bring out an Electric car anything like this I will be putting my money on the table for the 'around the town stuff' but I would hope to get a A500 SS (with regenerative braking ) while they're still be made to 'put in the garage' when the need arises .

 

[SiliconS]

Exactly the point. It doesn't matter where you brake; anytime you brake you are throwing away energy you've paid for in fuel. Speeding round the corners won't help if you still have to brake at the bottom. Anything which reduces the amount of braking you need to do, even by a small amount, will help fuel consumption.

If the Government flattened the hills in the Peak District then the problem would virtually disappear.

I'm thinking along the lines of doubling the capacity of the battery, fitting a heavy duty alternator, and electronically switching the alternator in/out to increase engine braking when the throttle is closed. Software could allow the battery to discharge up to 50% in normal running, to be replenished when the car is descending or slowing with the throttle closed.

Haven't worked out any numbers yet, but I'd bet this could achieve a 5% fuel saving for an additional one-off cost of around £200, which would be well worth it over the life of the car.

My Audi does this, apparently, so the technology exists. I've never noticed the car slowing down more quickly than previous cars on the over-run, but then it's a heavy barge so perhaps the regenerative drag has less effect. I can't remember what fuel saving Audi claimed through this system but your estimate doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

 

[loveshandbags]

Came across this last day looking for a US 500 with an Abarth kit.
The figures mentioned on the first more PC video clip 'shot' in Detroit in 2010 would put the A500 performance figures to shame. I would have to assume that this is a 'working' 500.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Can someone explain to me why people are braking going down hills? I know east Anglia Is fairly flat, but when traveling to sisters uni in Preston along the back hill country roads, I simply select a low gear and cruise down hill using fuel shut off (foot off of accelerator) and the mpg gradually goes up and up. Yes you have to loose some going up the next hill, but keep using fuel shut off and it soon evens out

With regards to electric cars, ifs something I've been following closely, if it wasn't for cost I'd happily swap mine for one. Retro fit in the 500 by Fiat might be possible, I mean it's been done with the I-meiv which is base on the petrol 'I'.

I look forward to Fiat releasing their first electric car, I feel there's lots of room for improvement though with current ones, what's stopping the roof being one big solar cell to help supplement AC etc on really bright hot days and trickle charge the car when parked etc (I know it would only be a small trickle but would all help).

 

[loveshandbags]

Can someone explain to me why people are braking going down hills? I know east Anglia Is fairly flat, but when traveling to sisters uni in Preston along the back hill country roads, I simply select a low gear and cruise down hill using fuel shut off (foot off of accelerator) and the mpg gradually goes up and up. Yes you have to loose some going up the next hill, but keep using fuel shut off and it soon evens out

With regards to electric cars, ifs something I've been following closely, if it wasn't for cost I'd happily swap mine for one. Retro fit in the 500 by Fiat might be possible, I mean it's been done with the I-meiv which is base on the petrol 'I'.

I look forward to Fiat releasing their first electric car, I feel there's lots of room for improvement though with current ones, what's stopping the roof being one big solar cell to help supplement AC etc on really bright hot days and trickle charge the car when parked etc (I know it would only be a small trickle but would all help).

They reckon that a solar panel can be used on a standard car when it is stationary (in a garage) to 'top the battery up' so when the car is 'going' the alternator does not have to work. There has been claims of 10% improvement in economy but that might be been on some V8 US vehicles.

There was some discussions on solar panels on current electric cars and the issue that was given for not fitting one was that it would affect aerodynamics. Although if you think of the glass roof on the 500 I couldn't 'see' how that could not be replaced with a solar panel.

Below is a youtube of an electric conversion on a classic 500 that I mentioned on a previous thread.

 

[grimwau]

Came across this last day looking for a US 500 with an Abarth kit.
The figures mentioned on the first more PC video clip 'shot' in Detroit in 2010 would put the A500 performance figures to shame. I would have to assume that this is a 'working' 500.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO24V-OTcFc&feature=related

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxOCvbOX3iQ&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxOCvbOX3iQ&feature=related[/URL]

Strange thing is, I watched the second video 3 times but can't seem to remember anything about the car. :chin:

 

[grimwau]

I feel there's lots of room for improvement though with current ones, what's stopping the roof being one big solar cell to help supplement AC etc on really bright hot days and trickle charge the car when parked etc (I know it would only be a small trickle but would all help).

I had a Skoda Superb (officially you cannot make jokes about them anymore) and the sunroof incorporated a solar panel that would keep the A/C working on a hot day whilst the car was parked. It was great coming up from the beach and whilst other people opened their car doors and stood outside whilst the hot air escaped I would just get into a cool car. (not that type of cool, they weren't cool then.)

 

[306maxi]

I had a Skoda Superb (officially you cannot make jokes about them anymore) and the sunroof incorporated a solar panel that would keep the A/C working on a hot day whilst the car was parked. It was great coming up from the beach and whilst other people opened their car doors and stood outside whilst the hot air escaped I would just get into a cool car. (not that type of cool, they weren't cool then.)

Now that's a clever feature which is actually useful. A lot of stuff in cars these days is clever but not all that useful. I mean does anyone REALLY need automatic wipers? When there are drops of water on the screen that tends to be my cue to put the wipers on and when it gets dark enough for me to feel I need lights on then I put my lights on.

Thankfully the 500 is so small that on a breezy day you just open the doors and boot and put the fan on for 20 seconds and the hot air is gone