Technical 2.0Hdi Jtd s engine stopped in very wet conditions

[Landlubber]

My engine simply stopped. It was very wet, but nothing that I have driven in previously. Has been running very well until now.

Red flashing stop light when I put ignition on. NO MIL LIGHT ON.

My MaxiDiag FR704 which has worked very well previously, keeps coming up with "linking error"

I understand the ECU fuses are a 20A in the engine bay fuse box....not sure which one precisely, but all fuses are OK........and behind the glove box, No 2 is 5A and No 3 is 15A. All seem good.

Nothing obviously wrong mechanically. I suspect the crank position sensor as I understand it will stop the engine.....as does the camshaft sensor, which did this previously.

I am in Paris, so cannot use AA or RAC backup and their more advanced diagnostic and roadside skills.

Advice urgently needed.

 

[Landlubber]

I am still broken down. I have changed the Bitron 240109 multifunction relay...the brown one...several times. All fuses, earths etc the best I can. And the inertia switch behind the power steering reservoir. No joy.

I have bi passed the Bitron relay, with a fused lead direct from the battery. This should start the electric low pressure pump in the tank. It does not. I will be testing the pump directly soon.

What I do not understand is if the pump has failed, why can't I get a mil light on, or link my diagnostic to the ECU.

Can anyone advise. Thans

 

[avionista]

Have you tried to connect a Peugeot Planet 2000 interface to your diagnostic socket? I am not familiar with the MaxiDiag Fr704 equipment but the 'linking error' suggests it is unable to communicate with the ECU and/or BSI. The fuse box located in the engine compartment above the RH wheel is known to suffer from problems of water ingress. Perhaps, this is an area worth investigating. Without more information, it is difficult to offer more helpful advice. Hope you find your problem quickly.

 

[Landlubber]

Thanks for the reply. I plan to remove the battery tray and probably the fuse box. It appears that the underside of the fuse box contains a circuit board, so a replacement 2nd hand fuse box is on the cards. I appreciate that a defect here will throw up all sorts of unusual results.

I have removed the ECU and checked the voltage at every pin....all 87 !!
Most are 0 V, and some are 12v.....but I have quite a few in between !!
This suggests that my ECU is dead, because it has a faulty supply.....may well be the fuse box....which is why my MaxiDiag will not link to it. I do not have access to the diagnostic you suggest, but I feel it would not link either.

The strange this is why the fuel pump will not work ? As well as trying ti power up the pump via a totally separate fused supply, I will consider removing the fuel filter housing completely for inspection. I don't want any possible dirt/debris getting into my HP pump or the pressure regulator.

I am about to look closer at the role and control of the the Bitron 240109 multifunction relay....which I read somewhere..." provides power to the ECU, injectors and fuel pump" I have fitted several 2nd hand relays, no benefit....so again perhaps it goes back to the fuse box.

Any suggestions very welcome....I am planning to return to the UK to buy another car !!

 

[Landlubber]

Thanks for the reply. I plan to remove the battery tray and probably the fuse box. It appears that the underside of the fuse box contains a circuit board, so a replacement 2nd hand fuse box is on the cards. I appreciate that a defect here will throw up all sorts of unusual results.

I have removed the ECU and checked the voltage at every pin....all 87 !!
Most are 0 V, and some are 12v.....but I have quite a few in between !!
This suggests that my ECU is dead, because it has a faulty supply.....may well be the fuse box....which is why my MaxiDiag will not link to it. I do not have access to the diagnostic you suggest, but I feel it would not link either.

The strange this is why the fuel pump will not work ? As well as trying ti power up the pump via a totally separate fused supply, I will consider removing the fuel filter housing completely for inspection. I don't want any possible dirt/debris getting into my HP pump or the pressure regulator.

I am about to look closer at the role and control of the the Bitron 240109 multifunction relay....which I read somewhere..." provides power to the ECU, injectors and fuel pump" I have fitted several 2nd hand relays, no benefit....so again perhaps it goes back to the fuse box.

Any suggestions very welcome....I am planning to return to the UK to buy another car !!

 

[Landlubber]

Am still broken down.

I read today on a forum site, that if the crank angle sensor fails, it stops the engine, by stopping the LP electric pump, via the ECU .

Still not sure why my mil light would not come on ?

Back to square one....will replace sensor ASAP.

 

[Landlubber]

And I have bought a ZX 1.9d.....pre Hdi .....is this progress ??

 

[Landlubber]

I have fixed it.

If the electric pump fails ( it did not ) , I understand it will NOT put the mil light on....it knows it is supplying voltage, but does not know if the pump is drawing current.

I proved the feed to the pump was ok, by connecting the battery, via a fuse, to the output from the Bitron, ( bypassing the internal relay...controlled by the ECU ? )....and checking for a supply, at the connector just below the tank....it was ok.

Using jump leads, I connected a fused supply to the pump....again at the connector near the tank....the pump ran.

I FITTED A PLUG AND PLAY ECU. THE MIL LIGHT CAME ON, AND IT STARTED FIRST TIME.
Just tidying up my wiring before going on the road.

If anyone wants details of the wiring numbers and colors below the Bitron, I will post them.

Repair cost..... 3 bitrons, about £20 second hand....and the ECU £75 ....I already had the MaxiDiag,.....but am stocking up on spare sensors etc.....hopefully not necessary.

 

[Landlubber]

Oh and yes.....my removal charge from the Paris Peripherique .....£500

BE WARNED ....KEEP YOUR BREAKDOWN COVER UP TO DATE !!

 

[*welsh.wizard*]

If anyone wants details of the wiring numbers and colors below the Bitron, I will post them.

Always worth posting mate, thanks. Glad you got is started.

With regard to your FR704, I have just bought one and it came with the fitting shown in the attachent below. I have also taken a good a picture as I could of the socket in my Fiat Uylsse (1996 - 2.0L Petrol).

Is this the same plug that came on the end of your FR704? Is your socket (sorry, I can't remember the correct name) the same as mine? The FR704 appears to be the same shape as a television 'Scart Lead' and the socket in the car that it goes into, appears a rectangular shape.

Did yours fit and work (if it is the same as mine)? Or did you have to buy an extra attachment for it, to be able to fit your Ulysse, please?

If you had to buy a bit for it, to fit your ulysse, would you be so kind as to supply me with a URL link to it, so I can purchase one please?

Many thanks.

 

[Landlubber]

Well 4 months ago I fixed my Ulysse by fitting a plug and play ecu.

Welsh wizard....sorry I have not looked at the site since then...my FR704 came with the correct lead to plug into the port, on the underside of the dashboard, approximately in line with my right knee.

I have not used my Ulysse much since I fixed it, putting some miles on my ZX 1.9d. I kept running the engine at regular intervals and it started first time right through the winter.

I drove back to the UK for it's MOT and again it ran like clockwork for about 600 miles, including 500 miles in one go to the NEast. It failed it's MOT on driveshaft rubbers, nothing engine related.

Next morning, it simply would not fire, tuning over very well. No mil light on, identical symptoms as before. AA could not fix. Ecu dead again.

It looks very likely that my wiring is at fault, possibly bad earths, causing spikes ....but I cannot find anything. The battery negative is earthed to the wing adjacent to it, and a long earth lead goes to the bell housing, below the air filter , and adjacent to the crank position sensor. Using voltmeter all seems ok, and physically cleaned/ inspected connections. Cleaned earths both sides behind front headlights.

Have NOT YET FOUND BODY EARTH FROM GEARBOX TO CHASSIS. Any advice on this location, and what is going on much appreciated.

 

[Landlubber]

Will this never end ??

Advised that a problem in my wiring was "killing" my ecu.....too much current or a voltage "spike"......possibly caused by the alternator regulator failing , or simply disconnecting the battery, particularly while the engine is running.....

So I replaced the alternator. It was NOT an easy job, but I did find the first sign of a bad connection. After 120,000 miles, original alternator, the +ve had green verdigris on it....but the actual connection surfaces were good. Nevertheless it did show the presence of water over the years.....so my electrical problem might be history.

The +ve quick release battery connection, was a little too easy to disconnect....so I replaced both battery connections with " traditional " bolt connections, to ensure good connections, and thinking time while digging out spanners before disconnection.

Fitted another " plug and play " ecu , double checked all obvious ( to me ) connections, earths etc...

JOB DONE.......RUNNING LIKE A SEWING MACHINE AGAIN....

So, after regular use locally, around time , stop start , irrespective of weather,
with a HIGH DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE )

..... I drove from the NE for Paris. It ran like a sewing machine all the way to the bridge at Dartford !! where it DIED AGAIN. NO MIL LIGHT , WETTISH WEATHER FROM SAY STANSTED......DEAD.

So it's a water wiring ingress problem, repeatedly killing my ecu.

Advise on a strategy for solving this problem will be much appreciated ))

 

[Landlubber]

I forgot to say.....

Engine stopped suddenly, red flashing STOP light.....NO MIL LIGHT ON...turns over fine....dead ecu again.

AA called out , but although it fired up briefly with " magic " spray, it was only briefly. Crankshaft position sensor replaced.....yes I carry spares !!....but without success.

If the ecu is checked out, and a particular internal circuit is found to have failed......will this point to the area of the wiring harness/ circuit, to concentrate on ??

Thanks in advance....my glass is half full !!

 

[FRANTIC FRAN]

Sounds like you are probably a better expert than any of us on the wiring! Not experienced any of these problems on any of mine so can't help much as you've done most of the usual suspect items.

The only thing I can think of if water is coming into the cab from the front somewhere causing a short on a connector block etc. is the carpet wet? If you've got sunroofs then no surprise but if not possibly windscreen leaking on a seam or from the front scuttle somewhere?

 

[Landlubber]

Thanks for your reply .

I plan to remove the wiring loom this weekend. Lots of photos to help refitting.

Initially from ecu to fuse box. It loops down below the fuel filter and this may be point where water may end up, if slowly getting into loom.

Looking for chaffing of wires etc....

Find it hard to accept that Bosch/fiat/Peugeot/citroen management system does not have better protection to prevent this causing total engine failure, and I suspect all modern cars have this Achilles heal.

If anyone knows which parts of the management circuit operates at 12 volts, and which part at 4 volts, it might help me.


Thanks

 

[Landlubber]

Of course if I plan to cut the lawn in the rain this weekend, I can always pop to B&Q and buy a simple add on, to protect me from the killer fault.......but not the " vunderbar" Hdi system.

My glass is just below half full at the moment !!

 

[FRANTIC FRAN]

Th cambelt suffers from a similar problem with water dripping onto it - that's why they brought out the cambelt drip tray mod!

 

[Landlubber]

I am nearly in a position to remove the loom from ecu to engine compartment fuse box. Each connection has been identified with an old fashioned card luggage label.
I have had to remove the fuel filter to improve access. There IS an earth onto the bock, immediately behind the starter motor, below the fuel filter, which is not easily seen.
2 connections outstanding. The camshaft position sensor is at the top of the clutch housing, at the joint with the block....above the flywheel....very awkward to get at. The other sensor...wheel speed ??... I will have to get at it from below....but it has the steel wire "press" clip on it....press to release...when I can get at it.

Tools....8mm, 10mm, 13mm spanners and sockets plus Alan and "star" type keys.

ADVICE PLEASE....I want to understand more about the immobiliser.....can anyone advise, or give me a link to get more info.

I understand that an immobiliser fault will NOT stop a running engine. Is this correct ??