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New exhaust system!

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New exhaust system!

pandamonius_maximus

pandamonius_maximus

Chichi and Qing Qing
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Hi all.

I have recently had a stainless steel exhaust system made up by longlife exhausts. It is great, but i am concerned about one thing. I had fitted a standard front section pipe and then made up the rear section myself using a mini rc40 back box. That seemed to be less restrictive than this new one. A friend said that the exhaust might need to settle (bed-in i think were the exact words). I am not too sure this is true. Not an expert on exhaust either to be honest.

I have 3 theories at the moment:

1) I told them that a 1050cc engine will be going in soon so best make it up for that (mine is still currently the original 965cc). So perhaps the exhaust will work better for the new engine.

2)The downpipe is letting the system down as i noticed its poor construction when fitting it (very thick welds on the inside that i filed down smooth as best i could), but surely this wouldve made a difference to it before the stainless one was fitted.

3) The A/F mix has been disturbed, and so the carb might need setting up. (it runs very lumpy at idle). :cry: really dont want to have to do that!!

I might not be making much sence if i'm honest, if there is something more peeps need to know let me know.

I'll have a proper look at the car when I get a chance to check for any other possible causes for the apparent power loss. (having said that the car has lost power, it wasnt great after the end of the exhaust fell off either lol!!:eek:) As the construction of the exhaust is to a brilliant standard, I do not beleive it is their fault here.

Thanks in advance for any tips anyway.
Cheers,
Si

EDIT: Just thought of one more clue, it seems unable to reach 60mph alot. Having said that had a very heavy welder in the back at the time so might not be a fair test :eek:
 
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you said you're concenred about one thing, but you didnt say exactly what that one thing is. what exactly is the problem with the new exhaust?

you think the problem is that the new exhaust is more resticitve, however it is more likely that the new exhaust is less restictive, which would cause a loss of torque, making the car feel slower. if you've lost bottom end torque then it isnt restrictive enough. back pressure is critical to prevent scavenging.
 
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jug said:
you said you're concenred about one thing, but you didnt say exactly what that one thing is. what exactly is the problem with the new exhaust?
Click to expand...

Lol woops, was editing that and forgot to add power loss there :eek:

The torque does seem to be alot less, doesnt like hills very much atall now! I think at the moment there are too many factors. Might be caused by a blowing head gasket now i think too. there was a little mayonaise on the oil filler cap. :cry:

I will give it some time and see how it all turns out. Keep you all posted!
EDIT: I dont beleive the experts at longlife would've designed the system wrong though. It looks like a good job. What are peeps thoughts on my other ideas for the causes?
Ideas welcome!
Si
 
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Blowing head gasket certainly wont help things as you will have a compression loss.. get it sorrted and see where you go from there ..
 
Yes, will know soon enough i hope whether a new engine goes in or new head gasket goes on. I do have the head gasket ready if it needs it.

Having said that, we checked the compression and all cylinders were fine.
Tried one thing just now, the oil catch tank coming off the breather has been filling up with water and a little burnt oil. This is a problem with severely worn oil stem seals. Unfortunately i discovered it had filled to the top and so this mightve been smothering the breather. It does seem to go a little better aswell.

Tis an odd one. :rolleyes:
 
This is why I never recommend these types of exhaust, they are just bits of metal welded together buy guys pretty good at welding they are not designed for a specific application.

Liam
 
Well i took the car for a long spin over the gower today, and by the time i had got back into swansea there was significantly more power. So perhaps things are going to be ok :D. Unless it was just because the engine/exhaust was nicely warmed up.

On another note, it does look like the head gasket might be blowing a little aswell. And so more improvement there too i think.

Cheers,

Si
 
pandamonius_maximus said:
Hi all.

I have recently had a stainless steel exhaust system made up by longlife exhausts. It is great, but i am concerned about one thing. I had fitted a standard front section pipe and then made up the rear section myself using a mini rc40 back box. That seemed to be less restrictive than this new one. A friend said that the exhaust might need to settle (bed-in i think were the exact words). I am not too sure this is true. Not an expert on exhaust either to be honest.

I have 3 theories at the moment:

1) I told them that a 1050cc engine will be going in soon so best make it up for that (mine is still currently the original 965cc). So perhaps the exhaust will work better for the new engine.

2)The downpipe is letting the system down as i noticed its poor construction when fitting it (very thick welds on the inside that i filed down smooth as best i could), but surely this wouldve made a difference to it before the stainless one was fitted.

3) The A/F mix has been disturbed, and so the carb might need setting up. (it runs very lumpy at idle). :cry: really dont want to have to do that!!

I might not be making much sence if i'm honest, if there is something more peeps need to know let me know.

I'll have a proper look at the car when I get a chance to check for any other possible causes for the apparent power loss. (having said that the car has lost power, it wasnt great after the end of the exhaust fell off either lol!!:eek:) As the construction of the exhaust is to a brilliant standard, I do not beleive it is their fault here.

Thanks in advance for any tips anyway.
Cheers,
Si

EDIT: Just thought of one more clue, it seems unable to reach 60mph alot. Having said that had a very heavy welder in the back at the time so might not be a fair test :eek:
Click to expand...
eh am i missing something here or is this a genuine post:eek: i know its saturday but this has lost me:confused: itake it this is a panda we are talking about for a start:confused::eek:
 
jimboy said:
eh am i missing something here or is this a genuine post:eek: i know its saturday but this has lost me:confused: itake it this is a panda we are talking about for a start:confused::eek:
Click to expand...

lol no not genuine atall!:p

But seriously, i think i had best explain the story more simply at first then. Yes its a panda 4x4 with the early 965cc ohv engine. I fitted a stainless steel exhaust built by longlife. When i got it, the car was underpowered majorly and would find it hard to go up hills in even 2nd gear! (this was a steep hill mind, but didnt have a problem with it before!). My post was just to give a few thoughts as to what is causing it and to see what anyone else thuoght.

Anyway, now i am at the stage of realising the exhaust is improving which is odd in my books. My dad goes racing and I am pretty sure has gone and raced with a brand new exhaust without this power loss i seem to be experiencing.
The mayonnaise on the oil filler cap could also be caused by the engine running very cold atm (dodgy thermostat) so i am reluctant to jump to a blown head gasket as a conclusion.

Appolagies for the confusion, it is a bit complicated to be fair. There are lots of things in need of attention on my cars engine..hence the lookout for a new engine! :cool: I think these are irrelevant due to the fact that I am comparing its performance to what it had with the original exhaust. (in the same day!)

Cheers,
Si
 
To wrap this up...

The performance of the old panda has been improving every day, so I beleive, as was said by a friend of mine, that the exhaust is required to bed in first. Back to its normal slow yet keep up with traffic acceleration again.:eek:

Additionally, the engine gets a clean bill of health for now, and I will continue to put down the excessive production of water out of the rocker breather down to severely worn oil stem seals, condensation formation from an engine that runs a little cold atm and possibly worn piston rings. Head gasket seems to be fine. Will give the coolant water a "gas test" I beleive its called at some point. I'm sure my dad has what is needed here! :D. This will check for combustion gases present so I have been told!!(y)
To be honest though, its running so well now I hadnt realised how badly the old blowing exhaust was effecting the running. It now idles nicely and throttle responce is almost instant! :devil:
A happy ending after all!

Cheers!!!
Si
 
either its getting faster, or you're getting used to it ;)

lol @ 'bedding in'; the only reason any change would occur over the first few days is if the ecu was not reset and had to slowly adapt its operating parameters to suit the new exhaust.
 
Well this is just getting stupid :p lets play nice now :D

Just want realistic suggestions as to why performance would improve as the exhaust is used more.

Firstly. Power/torque whatever, general performance WAS so bad that it was failing to pull up the slightest gradient in 3rd gear. This was happening for the first few times i took her out. Then I went for a full blown 50 minute drive. The improvement was vast, yet still below pre stainless. :rolleyes: So far it has been getting better everytime I have taken it out. And the engine HAS NOT BEEN TOUCHED!! Engine was checked thoroughly, its fine. Got all the signs of classic pushrod fun but nothing detrimental to its power. It has just been serviced really.

As you probably were suggesting...THERE IS NO ECU!! lol!! So definately wasnt that.

As I've said, baffling problem. Never heard of such bedding in problems myself till now but for gods sake the evidence speaks for its self!! If you dont know what it is, dont talk down at me. I am not an idiot. :bang: I have a high opinion of the members on here so far, and have thoroughly enjoyed being a part of it all!

More suggestions are welcome. Reasons now really rather than solutions as the car is running pretty much as before.Phew!! :slayer:

I have thought of one more thing now also. I was just remembering some crap that my friend said he saw fly out the exhaust (only a tiny bit of something - probably exhaust sealant). What if the buggers used so much sealant that it restricted the flow too a large extent and took a while before it had all blown out the end. I'dve thought that sealant would disappear quite quickly tbh, but maybe it was just being stubourn! :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Si

PS Just in case the miss understanding is in the description of bedding in. I have been told that carbon build up within the system can effect it maybe and (although i find it a little unlikely) that the metal expands when it gets hot and settles down after a few heating and cooling cycles. Cant see the pipe diameter altering to the extend we're talking about tbh. Sounds silly to me. Those are the idea's so far from peeps in the know so far anyway.
 
To be honest pandamonius_maximus I think Jug is right and you are just getting used to it. The chances are the torque characteristics of the engine have changed and you are now 'driving' around the 'problem' now. When you first went out for a run you drove it as before, the reset ecu (in this case your brain(y)) has now made those tiny changes in gear/throttle position to improve the performance. By default your unconsious memory knew what rpm the engine needed to be in to do the hill with ease, thats now changed and it has to relearn.

It does sound as if the exhaust has been made with too little back presure, a very very comman fault with lots of these 'build you a custom exhaust' companies. If you can see if you can 'tack' your old box onto the back of the exhaust and give it a quick run to see if it makes any difference.

The carbon build up will effect the note of the exhaust (removing the stainless ting) but not the perfomance until a good 1/8 inch thick!

One off exhausts are always a minefield:eek: which is why I'm currently running a standard Panda back box:( cheers Damon
 
panda-sport said:
To be honest pandamonius_maximus I think Jug is right and you are just getting used to it. The chances are the torque characteristics of the engine have changed and you are now 'driving' around the 'problem' now. When you first went out for a run you drove it as before, the reset ecu (in this case your brain(y)) has now made those tiny changes in gear/throttle position to improve the performance. By default your unconsious memory knew what rpm the engine needed to be in to do the hill with ease, thats now changed and it has to relearn.

It does sound as if the exhaust has been made with too little back presure, a very very comman fault with lots of these 'build you a custom exhaust' companies. If you can see if you can 'tack' your old box onto the back of the exhaust and give it a quick run to see if it makes any difference.

The carbon build up will effect the note of the exhaust (removing the stainless ting) but not the perfomance until a good 1/8 inch thick!

One off exhausts are always a minefield:eek: which is why I'm currently running a standard Panda back box:( cheers Damon
Click to expand...

Hi,

I must be honest, I see what you are trying to say, and if the power loss wasnt throughout the entire rev range and the improvement in the last week wasnt so huge (with no tinkering atall to anything) I would be inclined to agree completely. I have to say that the whole bedding in theory sounded like a pile of ****e to me aswell. I thought that the exhaust was just designed so badly that it was miles off the requirements of my engine I was almost ready to go back to longlife and tell them to do a better job.
Is there really absolutely no other option other than my brain/ecu adapting? lol!
I really hope it isnt all in my head, I might give the car a 0-60 test to see where I am at tomorrow. Although that may not prove a thing. Really i need to go back home to somerset and test it in my old proving ground :slayer:

Assuming that it is just a badly made exhaust, would the excessively big end peice that they put on affect it atall? Perhaps I could restrict the end peice a little if so.

Thankyou for your input there damon anyway. I think to get to the bottom of it I am going to need to experiment with it a little as you said. Not sure I can put the old back box back on easily as the end of it rusted off and any bodge will probably lose power again. :eek:
By the way, regarding your standard back box I know exactly what your saying. My dad used to race his 1275 GT mini in the 70's with a completely standard system. It gave him great performance and some race wins I think too! :cool:

They are after all the exhausts designed perfectly for the car by the manufacturer (or at least for the manufacturer). Little more funding there than longlife i guess!

EDIT: That, i just realised, might not have been what you meant! :eek: Have you had trouble with a custom exhaust aswell?

I also appolagise if I over reacted in the last post aswell. Had a long day to say the least, and some of the replies just sounded a little bit patronising.
Thank you all for your input. Even if it looks like I am just going to have to bite the bullet and accept its lost power (for a longlife time haha! Nooooooo!).

Wish I had let someone else drive my car once in a while now. I couldve got them to tell me if it feels different still. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Si
 
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Ok, just done a bit of testing. Checked the pipe diameters and the pipe seems to have a consistant OD of 42-3mm. My old system had 40mm front section and a 45mm back box. Only bit that I dont like the look of hugely is the slight shortening of the pipe so that the pipe doesnt have such tight bends in it (I drew a picture that I have attached to explain better - artwork it be!)
Now onto the road test. 0-60 was a promising 21 seconds.:cool: Probably the best the old girl has done for a while, especially considering she's a 22 year old 4x4 panda with only 45 hp (if that :eek:). Those of you with panda 4x4's will know how much power is sapped by the extra running gear. :( So I'd say performance is up to scratch now. Pulls up all the same hills I had trouble with previously no matter how I take them (ie from low revs or high).
Good news all round really.
If anyone knows their exhaust design mumbo jumbo, by all means let me know if the pipe diameters sound off to you.
Thanks to those of you who tried to help.
Cheers,
Si
 

Attachments

  • Exhaust new and old.JPG
    Exhaust new and old.JPG
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i have very little technical knowlege, just the "suck it and see" type (i have built and played with a few)

and a 2mm raise in diameter doesnt sound like it will affect the power too much, probably raise power, if anything.

so maybe it was the putty thing?
 
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