Technical Fiat 500 1.2 Pop Spark Plugs

306maxi · Feb 21, 2012

jrkitching said:
The OP's question was answered way back in post #3 .

What we're doing now is just exchanging a few alternative ideas - you never know when some bright spark (pun intended) will stumble across something that'll be useful to someone else further down the line. There are actually a number of useful links in this thread, some of which I'd likely not have found on my own.

But your post has brought some much-needed humour into the discussion, so thank you .

That's exactly what I love about this forum

The question gets answered quickly and then we get onto some interesting geeky chatter

grimwau · Feb 21, 2012

306maxi said:
That's exactly what I love about this forum The question gets answered quickly and then we get onto some interesting geeky chatter

Indeed! ..... in fact sometimes the question might not even get an answer, lol.

Chrisilda · Feb 21, 2012

Chrisilda said:
I'm posting the Bosch list with the UK part numbers for those who may be interested.

For:
FIA 2190 / 500 1.2 / 500 [150] / 1,2 / 51kW / 07/2007- / 169 A 4.000
FIA 2191 / 500 1.4 / 500 [150] / 1,4 / 74kW / 07/2007- / 169 A 3.000

Spark plug, Super plus(YR 7 DC+) 0 242 135 515
(0,90 mm electrode gap)

Spark plug, Platinum Ir CNG/LPG gas(YR 6 KI 332 S) 0 242 140 514
(Product for gas operation only - Replacement interval 30,000 km- 0,70 mm electrode gap)

Spark plug, Super CNG/LPG gas(YR 6 DES) 0 242 140 519
(Product for gas operation only - Replacement interval 15,000 km - 0,70 mm electrode gap)

For:
FIA 2433 / 500 1.2 LPG / 500 [150] / 1,2 / 51kW / 09/2010- /

Spark plug, Super plus(YR 7 DC+) 0 242 135 515
(Product not for vehicles running on gas, 0,90 mm electrode gap)

loveshandbags · Feb 23, 2012

bluejohn125 said:
Aahhh!!!!!!!! :bang:

For god's sake, it's spark plugs for a 1.2 8V Panda or 500, not O-rings for the space shuttle SRBs!

Why not just follow the official Fiat manual, or alternatively the specific recommendations of your preferred supplier?

I'm sure the original poster hasn't learned anything from this thread, except not to ask a simple question on this Forum! :devil:

This reminded me a bit of a recent posting on the Maser thread. What 'sparked' the discussion on this thread was that the recommended plug in the manual for the OPs 1.2 was technically incorrect but would still work.
What I discovered was that the 2 sets of the 'better' iridium plugs that I ran had the wrong gap and for some the risks to re-adjust it to 1.0mm if not done correctly could have a nasty result. I'm still wondering if I could have averaged 36.5mpg

as opposed to 35mpg

on the last 500 1.4.
In relation to the specific recommendations of preferred suppliers you'll notice that on the sparkplugs.co.uk there is a disclaimer so 'you takes your chances'.
On the topic of 0-rings for space shuttle - I would imagine that they can get petty hot and are liable to overheat.

bluejohn125 · Feb 23, 2012

I didn't see anywhere a clear indication that the official Fiat manual that you reproduced was actually wrong, I think this (if true ???) is more noteworthy and significant than what Bosch sparkplugs and gaps you might need for LPG....

Any genuinely helpful, concise, accurate information or opinion becomes inevitably lost in an indeciferable, interminable techno dweeb-fest that may entertain one or two but generally discourages and frustrates anybody else.

A simple summary table of all the various relevant recommendations and options might help explain things.

Finally, the space shuttle reference clearly went right over your head (no pun intended)... the point was in fact that they were too cold rather than too hot..

jrkitching · Feb 23, 2012

bluejohn125 said:
Any genuinely helpful, concise, accurate information or opinion becomes inevitably lost in an indeciferable, interminable techno dweeb-fest that may entertain one or two but generally discourages and frustrates anybody else.

I have some sympathy with what you're saying - some of our posts are no doubt contradictory & confusing, and the really useful stuff can quickly become buried in what will seem to many to be an indecipherable stream of techno-babble.

But we need to have these discussions - it's only by pooling our collective knowledge, ideas & experience that we'll be able to break free of the costly & frustrating stranglehold that FIAT & their franchised dealers would like to keep us under. It may not seem relevant to the majority just now, but finding a set of high-tech plugs which work well in the 500 might save a lot of folks real money in the longer term - how much did you have to pay in labour charges the last time you had a set fitted, and how much could you save if you didn't have to fork out again for another 60,000 miles? If it turns out that they really do save 5% in fuel, that could be another £100 a year in your pocket. But right now, we just don't have the hard evidence to support the claims we read about, one way or the other.

It'd be great if there were a simple set of concise recommendations that we could rely on, but one thing this thread has shown is that the information out there, even when it's produced by the major players, is confusing & sometimes just plain wrong.

If you just want to follow the manufacturer's recommendation, the data you need is in your handbook - and I put that on the forum way back in post #11. Some of us think there's scope for improvement on this, which is why we're continuing the discussion. But it's only when one of us is brave (or foolish) enough to actually try something new that we're able to give a recommendation from experience - and posts like "I ran these plugs for 10,000 miles & this is what I found" are probably worth more than a shelfload of data sheets. Some of us are putting our warranties on the line by messing with this stuff, and we want to be as informed as possible before making any potentially very expensive mistakes.

So to loveshandbags & the rest of the geeks - keep 'em coming, your input is both welcome and useful

. And apologies to anyone who finds my posts discouraging or frustrating - of course, you don't have to read them...

.

loveshandbags · Feb 23, 2012

bluejohn125 said:
I didn't see anywhere a clear indication that the official Fiat manual that you reproduced was actually wrong, I think this (if true ???) is more noteworthy and significant than what Bosch sparkplugs and gaps you might need for LPG....

Post 11 (Click here) shows where the Fiat manual is incorrect. The ZKR7A-10 was designed with an 'extra projected tip' and a 'special design' for a reason for the 'newer' 1.2 engine. If you opted for an equivalent iridium plug - none is available and then you would have to opt for an equivalent in the wrongly specified plug.

For clarity - the right 'standard' plug for the 1.2 is the ZKR7A-10.

bluejohn125 said:
...and significant than what Bosch sparkplugs and gaps you might need for LPG....

I've seen a renewed interest in LPG conversions and 'Fiat' supplied NA & T-jet engines given the rising cost of fuel. IMHO the right kind of plugs and the 'recommended' spark plug gap is relevant for this particularly when the Bosch plugs have been set at the 'right' gap.

And on the topic of gaps - the spark plug gap for the 1.4 engine in the Panda 100HP is 0.9mm as opposed to 1.0mm.

bluejohn125 said:
Any genuinely helpful, concise, accurate information or opinion becomes inevitably lost in an indeciferable, interminable techno dweeb-fest that may entertain one or two but generally discourages and frustrates anybody else.

Looks like my efforts to be 'concise and clear and timely' have failed miserably - so guilty as charged.

Although, It didn't seem to discourage Chrislida's contribution.

bluejohn125 said:
A simple summary table of all the various relevant recommendations and options might help explain things.

Thanks for offering.

bluejohn125 said:
Finally, the space shuttle reference clearly went right over your head (no pun intended)... the point was in fact that they were too cold rather than too hot..

Just as well. It wouldn't do to take anything personal on the FF.

RobinPJ · Feb 23, 2012

I find it takes me about a nanosecond to realise when someone (let's call him "Paddy" to protect his identity) goes off on one and is boring me to death with detail that I don't really care about and don't understand, and then I just skim over it.

One day, however, it might come in handy, even to me.

So let's keep things as they are.

loveshandbags · Feb 23, 2012

jrkitching said:
...Some of us are putting our warranties on the line by messing with this stuff, and we want to be as informed as possible before making any potentially very expensive mistakes.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/268372-spark-plugs-100hp.html?p=2750046

loveshandbags · Mar 22, 2012

jrkitching said:
... but finding a set of high-tech plugs which work well in the 500... we just don't have the hard evidence to support the claims we read about, one way or the other.

I put in a set of Denso iridium plugs to replace a OEM set (NGK Iridium) in a T-jet engine in a MiTo (same engine in the A500) that were in since new & have done 20K miles. The garage where I bought the car didn't replace the plugs as agreed as part of the service when I picked it up.
I've no hard evidence as such but have noticed that the average mpg readout is now showing an average of 37mpg

whilst before it was giving around 33.4mpg (the A & the B were the same). I have not changed my driving style but with the turbo it's hard to notice any difference in performance. Note that the tough version (VX) is not available in the T-jet model.
I will know over the coming weeks if the improvement is representative or not.
If anyone was looking to upgrade to the IX22 or VX22 in a 500 1.2 or preferably a 1.4 make sure that you increase the set gap from 0.8 to 1.0 carefully.

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220891756595&ssPageName=ADME:L

MR:IE:1123

jrkitching · May 30, 2012

Thought I'd revive this thread as I'm about to start experimenting. I've just ordered a set of NGK DCPR7EIX plugs & will try them initially in the Panda, & depending on results, might splash out for another set to try in the 500.

At around £27 for a set of 4, delivered, they're a reasonable compromise between cheap OEM parts & Denso's iridium jewellry.

Will initially try as supplied with a 0.8 gap as the lower discharge voltage should help protect the longevity of the coil packs.

According to the book, at nearly 20k the Panda's well overdue for a plug change*, but I've always replaced plugs on condition rather than mileage & they've not missed a beat thus far. To top it off, LadyKitching just brought the Panda in having logged a trip mpg of 70mpg+ on the commute home so the NGK iridiums will have a hard act to folllow.

*According to the service manual, the Panda OEM plugs are meant to be replaced every 12k but the near-identical 500 plugs are supposedly good for 18k.

loveshandbags · May 31, 2012

jrkitching said:
Thought I'd revive this thread as I'm about to start experimenting. I've just ordered a set of NGK DCPR7EIX plugs & will try them initially in the Panda, & depending on results, might splash out for another set to try in the 500.

At around £27 for a set of 4, delivered, they're a reasonable compromise between cheap OEM parts & Denso's iridium jewellry.

Will initially try as supplied with a 0.8 gap as the lower discharge voltage should help protect the longevity of the coil packs.

According to the book, at nearly 20k the Panda's well overdue for a plug change*, but I've always replaced plugs on condition rather than mileage & they've not missed a beat thus far. To top it off, LadyKitching just brought the Panda in having logged a trip mpg of 70mpg+ on the commute home so the NGK iridiums will have a hard act to folllow.

*According to the service manual, the Panda OEM plugs are meant to be replaced every 12k but the near-identical 500 plugs are supposedly good for 18k.

I had the NGK Iridium and didn't find they made any difference.
Did find that the Denso plugs made a difference - got the 'cheap' ones the IXU22. It's a pity the VXU22 have got so expensive - but if I had the 1.4 again I would get the VX since they are supposed to last nearly as long as the NGK Iridium which are genuinely long life plugs.

http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/
DCPR7EIX £7.18 + vat
VXU22 £12.22 + vat
IXU22 £8.19 £32.76+vat=£39.21

IMHO I would also take a chance and widen the gap from 0.8mm to 1.0mm to get the economy improvements to 'pay for them'.

That 'all in price' on the NGK Iridiums was excellent. From which supplier are you getting them off ?

jrkitching · May 31, 2012

loveshandbags said:
IMHO I would also take a chance and widen the gap from 0.8mm to 1.0mm to get the economy improvements to 'pay for them'.

It's late at night so I may be missing something obvious, but why should widening the gap affect the fuel economy?

.

They'll pay for themselves easily if they last the claimed 60000miles

.

I really can't see why FIAT still fit ancient technology plugs as standard - to me, it's a bit like using a straight mineral oil in the engine & imposing a 5000 mile oil change interval. We may debate the economics of paying a few quid extra for a set of plugs, but for ordinary folks who take their cars to dealers for maintenance, the reduction in servicing costs from having a first plug change at 60k miles would be significantly greater than the additional cost of the plugs, which to a large manufacturer buying in bulk would probably be less that £10.

TBH I'm not really expecting any gains in economy over standard plugs. What I'm going to be watching closely is how they affect the engine's power delivery in the 1200-2000 rpm band.

loveshandbags said:
That 'all in price' on the NGK Iridiums was excellent. From which supplier are you getting them off ?

eBay -abpartstraders.

loveshandbags · May 31, 2012

jrkitching said:
eBay -abpartstraders.

Thanks for that link. Excellent price at £25.56 incl. P&P. They've made a mistake on the P&P to Ireland with it costing £39.99

plus the price of the spark plugs.

jrkitching said:
It's late at night so I may be missing something obvious, but why should widening the gap affect the fuel economy? .

Since the gap is supposed to be 1.0mm leaving it at 0.8mm is if you are running LPG (it might involve having it even narrower at 0.7mm) or if the car is going to be turbo-charged or super-charged.
I found no difference in economy with the densos set at 0.8 on the 500 1.4 but if I had set then to 1.0mm I would have expected an increase in economy. Leaving them at 0.8mm should make then last longer but I would be looking for a better response and hopefully get the claims made by Denso of an increase in mpg.
Here's an example of one such discussion...
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18636

EDIT:

jrkitching said:
TBH I'm not really expecting any gains in economy over standard plugs. What I'm going to be watching closely is how they affect the engine's power delivery in the 1200-2000 rpm band.

Reckon that on changing Mrs jrkitching's Panda Euro 5 1.2 mpg will slightly increase given the new plugs. BUT since the ZKR7A-10 were specifically designed for the Euro 5 1.2 in BOTH the Panda & the 500 with the extended tip - this is for better efficiency and to improve emissions (refer to Tip protrusion in Wiki). IMHO the DCPR7EIX will be a 'step down' in performance terms but will they will last a lot longer. To compensate for the less optimium design of the DCPR7EIX IMHO you will have to 'go over the top' with the Densos.
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug[/ame]
Looking forward to the outcome on the change to the NGK Iridiums. Good to see someone having a go at it.

jrkitching · May 31, 2012

loveshandbags said:
Reckon that on changing Mrs jrkitching's Panda Euro 5 1.2 mpg will slightly increase given the new plugs. BUT since the ZKR7A-10 were specifically designed for the Euro 5 1.2 in BOTH the Panda & the 500 with the extended tip - this is for better efficiency and to improve emissions (refer to Tip protrusion in Wiki). IMHO the DCPR7EIX will be a 'step down' in performance terms but will they will last a lot longer. To compensate for the less optimium design of the IMHO you will have to 'go over the top' with the Densos.

Our Panda is a 1.2 Euro4 model so the DCPR7EIX plugs are correct save for the 0.8mm gap - hence why I'm starting the experiment with that car & will move onto the 500 if I'm happy with the results

.

UPDATE: The plugs were ordered Tuesday afternoon & arrived in the post this morning - so can't fault the service & at £25.56 the price is right too

.

Venters · Jun 1, 2012

Are you going to angle the electrode for maximum combustion efficiency?

jrkitching · Jun 1, 2012

Venters said:
Are you going to angle the electrode for maximum combustion efficiency?

It's not that easy to find a set of 12mm indexing washers. NGK supposedly make one (it's part no 207-201), but a quick trawl of the 'net has failed to find a supplier .

If I'm feeling sufficiently anal I might mark up the plugs, do a test fit & swap 'em round to get the best alignment

.

306maxi · Jun 1, 2012

jrkitching said:
It's not that easy to find a set of 12mm indexing washers. NGK supposedly make one (it's part no 207-201), but a quick trawl of the 'net has failed to find a supplier .

I reckon there's a lot more to be gained by most people disassembling their brakes and putting some copper grease where it's needed. I was a bit sparing with the copper grease and my nearside pads are grinding nicely on the discs. Must be costing me a bit in fuel economy.

Venters · Jun 1, 2012

http://www.sudco.com/spark.html#wash

American but I'm sure they would ship washers worldwide.

jrkitching · Jun 1, 2012

306maxi said:
I reckon there's a lot more to be gained by most people disassembling their brakes and putting some copper grease where it's needed. I was a bit sparing with the copper grease and my nearside pads are grinding nicely on the discs. Must be costing me a bit in fuel economy.

:yeahthat:

And for those folks with discs all round, I'd say the rears could be even worse in this regard.

If I ever got to design a proper eco car, I'd specify drums all round, for this precise reason.

Technical Fiat 500 1.2 Pop Spark Plugs

Currently reading: Technical Fiat 500 1.2 Pop Spark Plugs

STOP! Hammer time!

aka tony

Miss Sunshine

Moderator

Prominent member

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

bairns, not bombs.

Moderator

STOP! Hammer time!

bairns, not bombs.

Moderator

Similar threads

Currently reading:
Technical Fiat 500 1.2 Pop Spark Plugs